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Post by James Richardson on Oct 22, 2014 8:07:33 GMT -6
I'm currently reading through the Chainmail rules, trying to gain a thorough understanding of them, and there's one bit that's perplexing me.
In the Rate of Fire section at the bottom of page 11, it makes reference to an "opponent's die roll", saying that archers can move over half their normal movement and still fire if they "beat their opponent's die roll".
However, I can't see anything about this die roll anywhere. The MISSILE FIRE table uses a dice to determine how many figures get hit (that's my interpretation of it, anyway), but there's nothing there to say how both players might roll one or more dice, and how one would beat the other.
Reading ahead (in case the rules are alluding to something that has yet to be explained) I still can't see anything about the opponent making a die roll at any point.
Can anyone tell me whereabouts in the rules this die roll is explained? There's a good chance that I've read the text, but just not realized that that's what it was.
I did try Googling it, and searching this forum, but the most people do is just quote the rule. No one actually explains what it entails exactly.
Thanks!
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by Torreny on Oct 22, 2014 9:25:06 GMT -6
You and the other player both roll a die (highest wins), in the event one of his units is charging your archers, and those archers have moved up to half their allowance. It's to see if they can get a volley off fast enough before the melee closes (if you're meaning for them to fire against the attackers). This is as I recall, anyway.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 22, 2014 9:52:56 GMT -6
It's the die roll from step 1 of the move/counter-move system on page 9.
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Post by James Richardson on Oct 22, 2014 11:07:39 GMT -6
If I understand correctly, it seems you both have different interpretations of this rule, meaning it probably is a bit ambiguous! It's the die roll from step 1 of the move/counter-move system on page 9. This makes sense as far as the text of the rules goes. The thing that bugs me though is, what purpose would such a rule serve? So, you beat your opponent on that initial die role, elected to move, say, last, and that means that you'll have the additional advantage that your archers can always move their full move and still fire? Doesn't seems like an advantage that will improve the game at all. Furthermore, looking at the original Panzerfaust version from 1970, although it has this same rule (phrased as "Units may move full move and fire if they beat opponent's die roll") the rules do not include the move/counter move system or any other turn sequences. So, it would be referring to a die role that had yet to be written (or published, at least?), which is unlikely (although not entirely unlikely?). You and the other player both roll a die (highest wins), in the event one of his units is charging your archers, and those archers have moved up to half their allowance. It's to see if they can get a volley off fast enough before the melee closes (if you're meaning for them to fire against the attackers). This is as I recall, anyway. That seems like a more likely explanation. So, archers being charged have a 50% chance of getting a volley off at a unit that's charging them? That at least would serve as a disincentive to charge an archer unit, and it makes sense that an archer unit would fire at a unit that was charging at it. The only problem is, I think it's making a bit of an assumption that it's about charging, as I can't see anything in the rules that associates this die roll with charges. The way it's written in the rules implies that archers could move their full move, and then fire at any unit (whether it was charging at the archers or not) if they "beat their opponent's die roll". It doesn't say anything about charging. Also, it seems a bit of a simplistic rule — archers being charged have a 50% chance of getting a volley off at a unit that's charging them. I'd have expected a bit more of a sophisticated rule to cover this situation e.g. the MISSILE FIRE table but modified in the same way as for indirect fire — something like that.
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 22, 2014 13:15:49 GMT -6
So, you beat your opponent on that initial die role, elected to move, say, last, and that means that you'll have the additional advantage that your archers can always move their full move and still fire? Doesn't seems like an advantage that will improve the game at all. Eh? It basically means if you win initiative you can move AND fire; if you lose initiative you can move OR OR sacrifice half your movement and fire. Seems fairly important to me. I haven't read or played it, so I can't answer this.
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Post by James Richardson on Oct 22, 2014 16:21:43 GMT -6
Actually, I was wrong about Panzerfaust. It does (fleetingly) mention move/countermove. So, I'll probably go with your explanation, as I think it's the best fit. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 15:18:30 GMT -6
You and the other player both roll a die (highest wins), in the event one of his units is charging your archers, and those archers have moved up to half their allowance. It's to see if they can get a volley off fast enough before the melee closes (if you're meaning for them to fire against the attackers). This is as I recall, anyway. Missed this thread earlier. This interpretation is correct.
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by jacar on Oct 6, 2015 18:13:12 GMT -6
The massed combat rules are written in a very matter of fact style. If the rule says "beat the opponents die roll" then you try to do just that. Gygax clearly felt that the process did not have to be outlined. Rolling a die of your own is assumed.
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Post by James Richardson on Dec 16, 2015 7:15:58 GMT -6
But does this rule only apply to archers that are being charged? I don't see how you could infer that part from the Chainmail rules. This interpretation is correct. How can you be so sure?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 22:52:49 GMT -6
But does this rule only apply to archers that are being charged? I don't see how you could infer that part from the Chainmail rules. You are correct. "If Crossbowmen, Archers and Longbowmen are moved up to one-half of their normal movement (excluding charging) they may fire once; and if they are moved over one-half of their normal movement they may fire once only if they beat their opponent's die roll." The only mention of charging in this rule is specifying that the archers may NOT charge. This interpretation is correct. How can you be so sure? 1) Common sense reading of the rules. 2) The appearance of this mechanism in many of the miniatures rules of the time. 3) Being a member of the LGTSA and playing CHAINMAIL with Gary Gygax.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 17, 2015 4:58:19 GMT -6
This interpretation is correct. How can you be so sure? Michael played with Gary. That pretty much makes his word on these things correct, at least if you want to know how the author intended it.
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Post by James Richardson on Dec 17, 2015 12:34:51 GMT -6
OK, thanks, guys.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 18, 2015 4:59:46 GMT -6
it seems a bit of a simplistic rule — archers being charged have a 50% chance of getting a volley off at a unit that's charging them. I believe the rule is saying: if your archers are moved farther than half their move distance in your turn, there's a good chance they won't be able to shoot as well. FWIW, the probability a player's die will beat his opponent's die is not 50%. There are only 15 combinations out of the 36 possible--and equally probable--outcomes where this will be the case. So it's approximately 42% likely you'll get to shoot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 14:27:07 GMT -6
Also, it seems a bit of a simplistic rule — archers being charged have a 50% chance of getting a volley off at a unit that's charging them. I'd have expected a bit more of a sophisticated rule to cover this situation e.g. the MISSILE FIRE table but modified in the same way as for indirect fire — something like that. One of the principles of rule design that many old school writers, including Gary, used, was "never use a complicated rule when a simple one will do." There is absolutely no way to come up with any historical numbers for a probability of this occuring, so the simple die roll handles it as well as any. Never, ever, EVER use a complicated rule when a simple one serves. It only gunks up play.
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