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Post by Merctime on Oct 20, 2014 0:25:34 GMT -6
Ok folks... It's late, I'm sleepy, but I'm hitting a quandary here: When you guys are mapping out caverns, how many of you make at least some concession for mappers? Please note here, that by 'cavern' I mean something like a naturally-occurring cavity in the earth, whether it be a 'room' or 'passage' as opposed to a cavity in the earth that was 'worked' or 'mined out', if that makes sense to you. This is what I mean: When drawing caverns out, how "Lazy" do you draw the rooms and passages, as in how much do they meander in and out of the utilitarian 10' squares? Do you make lots of attempts to keep most lines near the edges of the squares so that caverns as well as dressed-stone rooms and passages can be reasonably simply explained to the mapper? Or do you draw the caverns and natural passages as curvy and wierdly-shaped as you imagine they might really look like, and mapping be d**ned? I've basically decided that I currently despise caverns as opposed to dressed-stone for this reason... I would really like to make concession for players mapping out the dungeon. Not necessarily making it easy on them, but at least making it doable. Even so, I think that natural caverns and caves, either as the solitary dungeon space on a whole level or when mixed with 'worked stone, square-shaped areas', really add to the atmosphere of the place so are actually really good to have. I've been drawing/re-drawing the same level all fricken' day  because I'm finding it a hard time drawing caverns and natural passages that are pleasing to the eye, provide long-ish passages with multiple (and hopefully meaningful) exploration choices, and still aren't next to impossible to describe dimension-wise so players can map them. For one map, I said screw it and just drew the caverns/passages 'lazy' and 'mapping be d**ned'. Any advice here? Any visual aids you guys might recommend? |
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Post by scottyg on Oct 20, 2014 5:30:19 GMT -6
The goal isn't to make an accurate copy of the DM's map. The goal is navigation. "Where was that door we passed up before?" "How do we get out of here?"
My 'Players Map' looks more like a flow chart than a dungeon map: a bunch of lines connecting a bunch of squares with a bunch of notes. When I DM I will help the players pretty up their map during down time if they want, but it slows the pace too much to do that during play.
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Post by scottyg on Oct 20, 2014 5:32:56 GMT -6
The point is, make the maps the way you want and don't worry about making it hard on the mapper. That's actually a good thing.
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Post by scottenkainen on Oct 20, 2014 8:25:49 GMT -6
My related question is, who here maps caves in 3D? So much of our mapping tends to be horizontal, like a floor plan. Who consciously thinks about how many feet off the floor the cave exit is? Or if neighboring caves overlap, because one is partly above or below the other, connected by sloping tunnels?
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 20, 2014 8:28:59 GMT -6
I have a cavern in an upcoming session of an adventure I am running. I did roughly map both a horizontal and a vertical. There are places where there are upper chambers opening out to bigger caverns on platforms (if you will) with other, deeper caverns, underneath (does that make sense). It was a lot of fun. It will be hard for them to map, but not hard for them to flow-chart. I tried to make it, basically, a giant bubble like chamber with lots of side bubbles of multiple tiers. Should be fun. I'll let you know how the players respond!
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Post by Stormcrow on Oct 20, 2014 8:37:29 GMT -6
If a cavern has a weird shape, I will sketch the basic idea of the shape for the mapper. Not to scale, not on graph paper, just an idea of the shape. I'll also give very basic dimensions, e.g., "60 feet at its widest."
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Post by makofan on Oct 20, 2014 10:17:10 GMT -6
My related question is, who here maps caves in 3D? So much of our mapping tends to be horizontal, like a floor plan. Who consciously thinks about how many feet off the floor the cave exit is? Or if neighboring caves overlap, because one is partly above or below the other, connected by sloping tunnels? ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper I tried when I designed the Fungus Forest level of Darkness Beneath megadungeon, but I couldn't find an easy way to map it |
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Post by makofan on Oct 20, 2014 10:17:47 GMT -6
Ok folks... It's late, I'm sleepy, but I'm hitting a quandary here: When you guys are mapping out caverns, how many of you make at least some concession for mappers? Please note here, that by 'cavern' I mean something like a naturally-occurring cavity in the earth, whether it be a 'room' or 'passage' as opposed to a cavity in the earth that was 'worked' or 'mined out', if that makes sense to you. This is what I mean: When drawing caverns out, how "Lazy" do you draw the rooms and passages, as in how much do they meander in and out of the utilitarian 10' squares? Do you make lots of attempts to keep most lines near the edges of the squares so that caverns as well as dressed-stone rooms and passages can be reasonably simply explained to the mapper? Or do you draw the caverns and natural passages as curvy and wierdly-shaped as you imagine they might really look like, and mapping be d**ned? I've basically decided that I currently despise caverns as opposed to dressed-stone for this reason... I would really like to make concession for players mapping out the dungeon. Not necessarily making it easy on them, but at least making it doable. Even so, I think that natural caverns and caves, either as the solitary dungeon space on a whole level or when mixed with 'worked stone, square-shaped areas', really add to the atmosphere of the place so are actually really good to have. I've been drawing/re-drawing the same level all fricken' day because I'm finding it a hard time drawing caverns and natural passages that are pleasing to the eye, provide long-ish passages with multiple (and hopefully meaningful) exploration choices, and still aren't next to impossible to describe dimension-wise so players can map them. For one map, I said screw it and just drew the caverns/passages 'lazy' and 'mapping be d**ned'. Any advice here? Any visual aids you guys might recommend? I describe them as roughly 20 x 50 with exits bla bla bla.I also mention nooks and crannies |
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Post by scottyg on Oct 20, 2014 11:32:41 GMT -6
My related question is, who here maps caves in 3D? So much of our mapping tends to be horizontal, like a floor plan. Who consciously thinks about how many feet off the floor the cave exit is? Or if neighboring caves overlap, because one is partly above or below the other, connected by sloping tunnels? ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper I do, very rarely. I use different color pencils to make it easier to read. For the most part it's too fiddely for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 2:58:56 GMT -6
The entire point of caverns is to make your players call you names. They should not be easy to map, and I don't worry about describing them exactly.
Mapping is SUPPOSED to be difficult. Your players should constantly be wondering "Did we get teleported or does our map just suck?"
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 21, 2014 9:58:59 GMT -6
Yeah, imagine how difficult mapping caverns would be in real life, without a DM telling you measurements. I agree that it should be hard for players, and the only point is to have a serviceable map (rather than a pretty one).
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Post by scottyg on Oct 21, 2014 11:27:58 GMT -6
Now imagine mapping a cavern thinking that some of those stalactites might be out to get you or your light and noise might be attracting hungry trolls from a nearby cave. Is a pretty map really that important?
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Post by Merctime on Oct 21, 2014 12:04:25 GMT -6
All good advice, guys... And thank you for it. I suppose I just got a bit flustered trying to make the maps too utilitarian in purpose. Think I'll just 'go with the flow' and draw me up some caverns! Love the idea that scottenkainen brought up about multi-height stuff too... Think I'll try to incorporate some of that somehow. Appreciate it, fellas! |
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Post by inkmeister on Oct 21, 2014 12:49:37 GMT -6
I'm going to go the other way on this. I'd map caves the same way you map the worked areas. The players aren't going to see your map anyway, so who cares if all that detail is present on the map, when really it comes down to corridors and larger spaces anyway?
It is fascinating reading about the older groups and the way they did things. That said, my group SUCKS (and I mean HARDCORE) at mapping. If I make the maps more complex than absolutely necessary, not only is it too hard, it's not even fun anymore, not even for me, since I have to watch them get things completely wrong and get the absolute wrong impression of the space I'm describing. Maybe I suck at describing spaces, too.
Anyway, I have settled on the utilitarian style you are talking about. I'd embrace it. Make your life easier. Even squarish maps can be plenty difficult. If you find that the whole process is just too easy for you and your players, by all means, make it more complicated.
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because I'm finding it a hard time drawing caverns and natural passages that are pleasing to the eye, provide long-ish passages with multiple (and hopefully meaningful) exploration choices, and still aren't next to impossible to describe dimension-wise so players can map them. For one map, I said screw it and just drew the caverns/passages 'lazy' and 'mapping be d**ned'. 
