Rebounding Lighting Bolts: A Second Question

[Deleted]

Underworld & Wilderness Adventures says the following on the topic of rebounding lightning bolts (page 9):

"While some referees allow Fire Balls and Lightning Bolts to be hurled in confined spaces, blasting sections of the stone equal to the remainder of their normal shape, it is suggested that the confined space cause these missiles to rebound toward the sender, i.e., a Lightning bolt thrown down a corridor 40 feet long will rebound so as to reach its stated length of 6” (60 feet underground), and this will mean the sender is struck by his own missile. It may be compromised, allowing say two feet of stone wall to be destroyed (allowing one foot of stone destroyed for every ten feet the space is short the full distance) and rebounding the missile one-half the distance short."

The lightning bolt example is what perplexes me. If a magic-user hurls a lightning bolt down a 40-foot hallway, he should not in fact be hit by the rebound. Consider the following diagram:

Magic-user<--------------------|-------------------->Wall

If the space between the magic-user and the wall is 40 feet, then the rebounding lightning bolt should only come back to the midpoint of the hallway—i.e., at that point it will have reached its stated length of 60 feet. It should not hit the sender.

So is the example just an error? Or is there some way of making this example work?

The only interpretation I could think of that would make this example work is to assume that, when a lightning bolt rebounds, it rebounds its full 60 feet in length (i.e., not the 20 feet necessary to constitute 60 feet total, but a full 60 feet from the wall). But that cannot be right, given the spell description for lightning bolt (from page 25 of Men & Magic):

"Utterance of this spell generates a lightning bolt 6" long and up to 3/4" wide. If the space is not long enough to allow its full extension, the missile will double back to attain 6", possibly striking its creator. It is otherwise similar to a Fire Ball, but as stated in CHAINMAIL the head of the missile may never extend beyond the 24" range."

The spell description clearly indicates that not all rebounds strike the caster (“possibly striking its creator”). But if lightning bolts rebounded a full 60 feet from the wall when cast in hallways less than 60 feet, then they always would strike the sender.

So, again, what gives with example in Underworld & Wilderness Adventures? My local gaming group has decided it is an error or misprint. I think that must be right. What do you think?

[waysoftheearth]

The lightning bolt also has a range of 24". It doesn't have to start at the caster's finger tips. It can start some distance away from him, so long as its farthest reach doesn't exceed 24".

[Deleted]

That's a good point, waysoftheearth.

But I don't think the range of the spell makes the example in Underworld & Wilderness work, at least not without reading much into the example that is not stated. In the example given, the lightning bolt would strike the sender if he casts the bolt so that it begins at mid-way mark or further down the hall, but the example does not imply that this is the case. We also could make the example work by assuming that the caster was located at a different point in the hall, but the example does not imply that this is the case either. As written, Underworld & Wilderness Adventures makes it sound as if the caster always would be struck by his own spell under the circumstances described, regardless of where the caster is located or where the lightning bolt is cast ("a Lightning bolt thrown down a corridor 40 feet long will rebound so as to reach its stated length of 6” (60 feet underground), and this will mean the sender is struck by his own missile").

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 16, 2014 23:18:08 GMT -6 @dungeonmonkey said:

I don't think the range of the spell makes the example in Underworld & Wilderness work, at least not without reading much into the example that is not stated. In the example given, the lightning bolt would strike the sender if he casts the bolt so that it begins at mid-way mark or further down the hall, but the example does not imply that this is the case.

To my eyes the example does imply exactly this.

The fact that a 6" long missile should rebound to strike a figure 4" away implies that the missile must begin not more than 2" from the wall.

How else can the example work?

[Deleted]

But that line of reasoning can be used to rescue any hypothetical example—just assume whatever additional facts are needed to make it work and it works! We may be talking past one another. I’m trying to ask a different question than the one you are answering, I think.

As the example is written, there are some possible scenarios that will result in the caster being hit by his own bolt (e.g., the circumstances you suggest) and some that will not (e.g., the circumstances I suggested in the initial post). But the language used to describe the example is absolutist: “this will mean the sender is struck by his own missile.” In other words, the language indicates that it is always the case that a magic-user will be struck by his own bolt when it is cast in a hallway that is 40 feet in length. The fact that there is a set of circumstances in which this is not the case falsifies that absolutist position. That we can imagine other circumstances in which the example works does not really address the question I am trying to ask, which is this: is there a way to reconcile the absolutist language of the example with the stated facts (i.e., a way to interpret the lightning bolt spell such that the example always holds true)? If not, then either the absolutist language should be softened to say something more like “this means the sender may be struck by his own missile” or else some additional facts need to be added to the example that renders the statement that the caster always will be struck by his own bolt true.

I suppose one could argue that the language used is not as absolutist as I suggest, and maybe you are doing so. But “a Lightning bolt thrown down a corridor 40 feet long will rebound so as to reach its stated length of 6” (60 feet underground), and this will mean the sender is struck by his own missile” seems to admit of no exception.

[waysoftheearth]

Softer language is used in the description of the lightning bolt spell itself: "If the space is not long enough to allow its full extension, the missile will double back to attain 6", possibly striking its creator."

So perhaps the example text might better be read to imply:

"even if this will mean the sender is struck by his own missile"

[Finarvyn]

Yeah, I think the language of the example is wrong. The total length of the lightning bolt would be 60' and if the space is too small then it will rebound so that the total length remains 60'. If the hallway was 30' or less, the caster would be hit by his own bolt. Of course, that assumes that the lightning bolt begins with the caster's fingers.

But here's another thought: suppose the intent of the lightning bolt is to begin the 60' when it first hits something. So, the 60' bolt doesn't "start" until it hits the wall 40' away, in which case it immediately rebounds 60' back toward the magic user. In general that's the intent anyway, that the lightning bolt begins with the first monster hit and continues 60' beyond to hit as many additional monsters as possible. The notion that the magic user gets to pick where to begin and end the 60' might not have occured to the authors.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 17, 2014 4:31:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

But here's another thought: suppose the intent of the lightning bolt is to begin the 60' when it first hits something. So, the 60' bolt doesn't "start" until it hits the wall 40' away, in which case it immediately rebounds 60' back toward the magic user. In general that's the intent anyway, that the lightning bolt begins with the first monster hit and continues 60' beyond to hit as many additional monsters as possible. The notion that the magic user gets to pick where to begin and end the 60' might not have occured to the authors.

The idea of choosing the start of the lightning bolt is specified in Chainmail:

Both types of missiles can be thrown up to 24", direct or indirect fire, with range being called before the hit pattern is placed. The center of the fire ball is placed down at the number of inches called. The head of the lightning bolt is placed at the number of inches called, so that its body extends 6" behind it in a straight line from the Wizard who threw it.
(Chainmail p31)

But I like like your idea a lot better for D&D Finarvyn

[aldarron]

Oct 17, 2014 5:18:58 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Oct 17, 2014 4:31:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

But here's another thought: suppose the intent of the lightning bolt is to begin the 60' when it first hits something. So, the 60' bolt doesn't "start" until it hits the wall 40' away, in which case it immediately rebounds 60' back toward the magic user. In general that's the intent anyway, that the lightning bolt begins with the first monster hit and continues 60' beyond to hit as many additional monsters as possible. The notion that the magic user gets to pick where to begin and end the 60' might not have occured to the authors.

The idea of choosing the start of the lightning bolt is specified in Chainmail:

Both types of missiles can be thrown up to 24", direct or indirect fire, with range being called before the hit pattern is placed. The center of the fire ball is placed down at the number of inches called. The head of the lightning bolt is placed at the number of inches called, so that its body extends 6" behind it in a straight line from the Wizard who threw it.
(Chainmail p31)

But I like like your idea a lot better for D&D Finarvyn

Was about to point out that CHAINMAIL reference, because I read that as basically agreeing with what Fin just said, at least for the purpose of the D&D example;

"The head of the lightning bolt is placed at the number of inches called..." meaning the spot of the lightning strike is marked at the place the caster is aiming.

...(the lightnings') body extends 6" behind it in a strait line from the Wizard who threw it." Meaning the lightning bolt extends 60 feet back from the spot it strikes in a straight line toward the caster.

So, if a caster misjudges, or doesn't know the length of a corridor ending in a wall 40' away, and calls a lightning strike down it, the bolt will start at the wall, since it can hit no further away, and extend back 60', frying the caster.

[waysoftheearth]

I think Fin's suggestion is kinda the opposite of Chainmail.

Chainmail has the player elect the farthest point the lightning bolt will reach.
Fin's idea is (if I'm reading it right) that the player should elect the nearest point the lightning bolt will reach.

I think Fin's idea makes more sense for D&D, because the magic-user wouldn't necessarily be able to see beyond the nearest target, and it might also make the possibility of reflection more likely.

[aldarron]

Oct 17, 2014 20:59:59 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I think Fin's suggestion is kinda the opposite of Chainmail.

Chainmail has the player elect the farthest point the lightning bolt will reach.
Fin's idea is (if I'm reading it right) that the player should elect the nearest point the lightning bolt will reach.

Yes, true. I meant only that in the specific case of the D&D example, he was "right" about it coming back from the point of impact at the wall. What Fin did or did not say is somewhat beside the point however. The OP asked how an MU could be struck by his own lightning bolt if the corridor is 40 away.

The answer is, as you say above, "Chainmail has the player elect the farthest point the lightning bolt will reach." with the tail stretching back to the caster 60'.

Oct 17, 2014 20:59:59 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I think Fin's idea makes more sense for D&D, because the magic-user wouldn't necessarily be able to see beyond the nearest target, and it might also make the possibility of reflection more likely.

<shrug> so the caster makes a blind guess and gets electrocuted. Apparently, the CM bolt must always start in open space. In the case of the U&WA example, the caster tries to cast a lightning bolt in a corridor that is only 40' long, for whatever reason. Presumably, the caster wanted the bolt to hit at some further, safe, distance 60'-240 feet away, but because a solid wall intervenes, the bolt head strikes at that point and the tail jumps back to the caster and another 20' behind them.

Incidentally, I think though that the wording of the spell description in M&M (doubling back) might be read to represent a change from the CM/U&WA lightning bolt if one prefers to see it that way.

[Deleted]

Thanks very much for the responses, gentlemen. This has been very helpful.

I appreciate the CHAINMAIL reference. You'd think I'd have thought to look there, given that the spell description references it.

If you use the CHAINMAIL mechanics for lightning bolts, then the Underworld & Wilderness Adventures example makes perfect sense; there is nowhere that a magic-user could cast a bolt in a 40-foot hall and not hit himself (i.e., if he must designate the head of the missile and the 6" extends backward toward the caster from there).

But I find it somewhat difficult to reconcile the CHAINMAIL mechanics with the language of the OD&D rules. Underworld & Wilderness Adventures refers to the bolts as "rebound[ing] so as to reach its stated length" and Men & Magic refers to bolts as "double[ing] back to attain 6", possibly striking its creator."

I could be misreading or misunderstanding, but it almost seems like CHAINMAIL and OD&D contain two different conceptions of lightning bolts: one premised on the CHAINMAIL mechanics and another that assumes the opposite (i.e., that the caster identifies the origin of the bolt and extends it forward, and if the caster does so in too short a space it bounces back).

[dizzysaxophone]

@dungeonmonkey, I have to agree with you, that the description differences in Chainmail and OD&D seem to be a bit different. I'd personally run it where the caster chooses the point of origin and that the bolt extends out from there.