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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 22:17:06 GMT -6
Recently while working on a new dungeon for my players to explore, I began thinking of what sort of traps and confounding features should be included therein. While I am fond of using pit traps (particularly open pits to deter the players from taking more direct routes) and false doors (some containing spear/arrow traps). I was thinking of other possibilities that would be suitable for the first three levels or so. I have reserved particular traps such as teleportation rooms, elevator rooms, archways that teleport specific items (metal, gems. clothes, etc.) into secreted chambers, and the like for levels 4-6, while typical death traps such as crushing ceilings, statues whose eyes shoot disintegration beams/death rays will be saved for lower levels still.
What I am interested in though is what could be considered to much in terms of upper level (1st-3rd) traps? As in what is often deemed unreasonable or should there be a limit on reasonability? This doesn't necessarily imply the severity or deadliness of a given trap, just on how much a given trap should hassle the players. Additionally can there be such a thing as to many traps as long as it is not a grind fest designed to annihilate the players? Something else I have been thinking about is the purpose of what I refer to a nonsense traps. For instance the magically trapped archway in the Tomb of Horrors that changes the gender of a player, or does some similarly hilarious and or pointless effect. I understand that from a strict roleplaying perspective these sorts of traps can have a great deal of impact on a party and provide many opportunities. Unfortunately, I feel that my players would miss this facet and become dissatisfied with this kind of approach. Has anyone had similar experiences with this sort of reaction? Often due to my players' preferences I am compelled to design short, simple, and mostly trap-less dungeon complexes loaded with combat encounters. Thus while I have designed many a sprawling dungeon complex teeming with nefarious traps, I have little practice with actually running such a game. Much to my own dissatisfaction. And though while I am not specifically looking for advice on trap design if anyone has any particularly ingenious trap they are fond of, or amusing story to relate concerning traps within their own dungeons, feel free to share.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Aug 13, 2014 3:21:01 GMT -6
Just talking about "real" traps, I don't really like save-or-die traps unless there's a fair chance of the characters at least finding the trap and deciding whether to risk it or to avoid it. Using traps to block short-cuts is one way - the characters can choose whether to disarm or trigger the trap, or find another way (which will be longer and may or may not be more dangerous).
Of course there could be traps that are too hard for players to find and too tricky to disarm, but somehow that's a less fun way of killing the party than an obviously overpowered monster. I like traps a lot but they seem to require more delicate handling than living (or at least perambulating) opponents.
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Post by scottenkainen on Aug 13, 2014 8:33:33 GMT -6
I think I average two traps per dungeon/hideout level usually. I tend to build overly elaborate ones, but I feel those have the best chance to be detected or avoided. Usually its the simple ones they don't see coming like pit traps and portcullis traps that get the characters, not the statue that starts slowly rotating as they cross the room until they get halfway, at which point it starts to spin rapidly and spray green slime all over.
I usually make sure that the trap is not blocking the only route the characters have to get to where they need to go, so if they're lucky or navigating well, they can bypass the trap altogether.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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jdjarvis
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Post by jdjarvis on Aug 13, 2014 8:40:38 GMT -6
I think traps that confine and disable are underused. Instant death traps are a bit silly too as any trap doing 7+ points of damage would also serve to be instant death to many characters of level 1-3. Sometimes a trap being awful darned obvious has significant play value too, they don't all have to be hard to find.
Which is more fun? A. Fosdick approaches the door and a stone shifts beneath his feet dropping a stone block from the ceiling flattening poor Fosdisk. B. Fosdick approaches the door and notices up overhead a cage dangling in a cavity above, as Fodsick pokes about to get a better look at the cage a stone shifts beneath his feet setting off a trigger that drops the cage down around him, the clatter echoes down the hall and seems to have stirred something beyond the door..
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 9:16:19 GMT -6
Often when I think of instant death traps my mind conjures the image of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Though while inevitable death is at hand, there is still time enough to figure out an escape plan.
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Post by jcstephens on Aug 13, 2014 10:47:05 GMT -6
My personal favorite death trap: The Well Of Souls.
It's a room, empty except for a circular opening in the center. If you approach it you hear faint singing: "This is the song that never ends, it just goes on and on my friends..."
Someone ALWAYS chimes in with "... some people started singing it not knowing what it was, and now they'll keep on singing it forever just because-"
This is when you set the dice in front of them and say "Saving throw against Death Magic. Right now."
If they fail, their lifeless body falls to the ground and the singing in the well gets a little bit louder.
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Post by cooper on Aug 13, 2014 14:25:06 GMT -6
I think instead of traps simply doing damage, an option could be a negative condition that can't be healed until the character leaves the dungeon. A trap that imposes a -25% movement rate is a serious hinderance for those groups following the exploration rules to the letter. You can call this "imposing a condition" on a failed saving throw. Another could be -2 AC or -2 hit, imparement that reduces hearing, surprise or search chances.
Alternately instead of imposing a condition on a failed save, you can introduce a "twist" this could be prompting a wandering monster encounter, getting lost by being teleported or shooted down a slide to a lower level.
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Post by Red Baron on Aug 13, 2014 15:48:42 GMT -6
B4 The Lost City is really the prime tsr example of how to do traps. The traps are fatal, but they are often in plain sight or give players time to save themselves with quick thinking.
eg.1: Crushing walls (fatal) that slam together when a pressure plate is stepped on. Here's the genius of it - the pressure plate is directly before the passage with the walls, so the players will activate it safely and see how it works the first time they encounter it. But if the players forget on the way back, the trap could easily kill the entire party (except the guy safely at the end, who has to watch in horror as his friends get squished because of him). But the players could also use this to smash pursuing monsters if they remember it, or stand on it to make the passage seem a dead end from the other side, then open the walls and sneak attack.
eg.2: The door to the room slams shut and posion gas issues forth out of holes in the wall. This is a great trap because players have a variety of ways to survive (some not even anticipate-able by the dm), there is a time limit (players loose 1 hp per round), and its still deadly. The players could use magic to stone shape a wall to let air out, or teleport themselves away, or knock the door. They could cover their mouths with wet rags, or stuff rags into the holes the gas issues out of. There's about a hundred ways to get out of it, but if you can't come up with one in about 3-4 minutes (depending on how many hit points your character has), they're dead.
eg.3: "Poison potion". a vial that looks like any other unidentified potion, but filed with deadly poison. This is a great way to kill pcs dumb enough to drink anything they find, and a powerful asset for pcs to use if they can discern its nature.
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Torreny
Level 4 Theurgist
Is this thing on?
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Post by Torreny on Aug 13, 2014 23:22:33 GMT -6
I follow the logic of making most as plainly obvious as they are deadly. Of course, not all, because that's just poppycock.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 0:29:07 GMT -6
While I'm all in favor of having many traps easily spotted or obvious, there are some traps that I think are great for surprise factor. For instance, I am fond of spear or arrow traps hidden behind false doors and overly fond of false doors in general. I also like to hide chutes and slides beneath piles of loose illusory treasure, though these illusions are more along the lines of holograms than typical illusions from phantasmal forces.
I've never really implemented traps that employ cages to imprison adventurers, though have used sliding stone doors that trap them within a room for an indefinite period of time (usually with a secret door as an escape route or a reset timer of say several hours or days). Additionally I tend to reserve poison traps for treasure chests that have been hidden away behind secret passages and the like.
Question, how many people have made use of the example traps located in U&WA and/or GH? While I like many listed in the prior, I feel the examples in GH are a bit over the top.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
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Post by tog on Aug 14, 2014 9:01:05 GMT -6
The scariest traps for me in Dungeon Robber (based on Gygax's old solo D&D charts) have always been the elevator rooms and the slides down one or more levels, since while not directly damaging they expose you to threats you're not necessarily ready to face... especially, it seems, when you're injured and short on resources and trying to get back outdoors in a hurry. EDIT: My suggestion - make your players scared and complacent. Pressure plates that emit a loud *CLICK* but do nothing obvious, clearly lethal death traps on the 1st level that no longer work correctly (the falling block gets jammed, the poison has dried up on the spikes, the flame launcher just dribbles oil), traps set off but never re-set, billows of cheap perfume instead of poison gas. Make them think nothing's wrong, so they act complacent when the REAL deathtraps come out. And if they get enough false alarms, they might get tired of even checking for traps in the first place...
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jdjarvis
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Post by jdjarvis on Aug 14, 2014 14:15:35 GMT -6
The pit that drops the victim into water is so much more of an issue than the plain old pit, it requires a quicker reaction and if someone is goign down to rescue the victim they have to worry about the water themselves.
Chutes/pits dropping victims to the next level down are an old favorite that has more place in open/mega-dungeon play than in rigid scenario modules.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 11:45:48 GMT -6
These all seem to be fairly reasonable methods of trap implementation and I am generally also of this idea (instilling the idea that there is/may be a trap near by) to keep players wits about them. Something else that has been causing me to wonder about the frequency of traps is wandering monsters. In a somewhat populated dungeon with a reasonable number of (grandfathered in) traps should monsters spring traps as well? Or should monsters be aware of the traps in a dungeon and either A: avoid trapped areas or B: trick adventurers into springing said traps (the latter combined with the adventurers eventual knowledge of such traps might lead to an interesting game of attrition/cat and mouse)? For example a party of adventurers is traversing a corridor when they encounter a group of hobgoblins. Between the two groups (though closer to the monsters) is a chute that deposits an unfortunate group two levels deeper into the dungeon. If the hobgoblins charge should they fall down the chute (or should a roll be made to see if they do)? I'm thinking so, at least from the standpoint of providing a sense of fair play (as well as the possible hilarity of the players reaction when the monsters disappear down the chute (or pit etc.).
Something else I have been ruminating over quite a bit lately is the use of green slime. I like the concept but I feel that the implementation will only make my players upset (particularly if used more than once on a given level or at all). What are some general guidelines to follow when including green slime, should it be placed in specific locations or randomly determined/placed? I'm personally leaning toward the former, placing the slime in out of the way areas possibly near valuable treasure vaults as a hazard. How do you guys utilize green slime in your dungeons? Is it a serious hazard from level one, or is it often saved for lower levels. Also is it reasonable to have entire sections of a dungeon level impassable due to the prevalence of green slime in the area? Again, I think the idea of using green slime is quite tempting and provides a nice evocative feel to a dungeon's atmosphere overall. I just do not want its use to devolve into turning the dungeon into a death trap.
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Post by scottyg on Oct 29, 2014 20:26:05 GMT -6
I'm a big fan of 'save or die', ore even just 'die' situations, but there's an art to it. They're not unavoidable. On the contrary, they should be activated by a deliberate player choice, or the consequences of poor play. And not just traps, just encounters in general. Gronan recently mentioned the six troll lair on level one of Greyhawk. There were warning signs. If you ignored them, it wouldn't be long before you were rolling up a new character. Another Gronan story:
Rob's Bottle City (an 8th - 12th level area) was accessed on the 2nd dungeon level. Blunder around touching everything, and you'll pay the price. I don't recall the exact event, but I remember Gary grumbling when NG converted Necropolis to D20 and they added a save to an something that Gary had killing you outright. In his opinion, if a PC does something so foolish he waives his right to a saving throw. The game started out full of resources that it was assumed players would use to avoid things, but a lot of players ignored these resources, and then whined about 'unfair' this and 'killer' that, an you start to see this kind of gaming phased out of newer editions. 10' poles were on the equipment lists for a reason. If your cleric passed on augury for another hold person spell, and then you poke the bottle and get sucked into a high level death trap, hopefully there will be more thought put into spell selection the next time around.
Not to say that one style of gaming is better than another.
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Post by scottyg on Oct 30, 2014 6:28:46 GMT -6
On a related note, the last time I was DMing, the players (1st - 3rd level) decided to try the 3rd dungeon level for the first time. After a short time roaming the maze of passages they came to a door. Listened. Nothing. Checked for traps. None found. Tried the door: stuck. Force it. D6 = 6. Try again. D6 = 6. Try again. D6 = 6 (no lie). By this time, the inhabitants of the chamber behind the door, a 5th level fighter, a 5th level thief, and a squad of men-at-arms are in perfect ambush formation, the thief in a backstab spot, a volley of missiles ready, etc. but it never came to that. All the noise the players were making succeeded in attracting some wandering monsters, five bugbears, with surprise. This really could have been the end of the party, and they would have deserved it, but they got lucky on the distance of the encounter and the amount of surprise time the bugbears had. Also, it was the first encounter so they had full hit points, spells, etc. The fighter who was making all the noise realized what had happened and stated, "I should have known better". Normally, he makes one attempt to force the door, and then runs away if he fails. And he probably won't make the same mistake again anytime soon.
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