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Post by Harbinger on Jun 9, 2014 13:31:49 GMT -6
All,
I'm gearing up to start a domain establishment campaign and am going to use the map from Outdoor Survival. One thing that I've always wondered on that map is - what way does the river flow? It seemed to me it's from the larger river to the North East of the map, which then splits in two and meanders SE and SW. The outdoor survival rules don't mention (plus, you're gonna die, so why bother?) But it could also be read as flowing in the opposite directions I normally wouldn't care much, but it has implications for the wider context into which I place the map.
Have you always read it the way I have?
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Post by jmccann on Jun 9, 2014 22:26:11 GMT -6
All, I'm gearing up to start a domain establishment campaign and am going to use the map from Outdoor Survival. One thing that I've always wondered on that map is - what way does the river flow? It seemed to me it's from the larger river to the North East of the map, which then splits in two and meanders SE and SW. The outdoor survival rules don't mention (plus, you're gonna die, so why bother?) But it could also be read as flowing in the opposite directions I normally wouldn't care much, but it has implications for the wider context into which I place the map. Have you always read it the way I have? Rivers don't really "split in two". The only thing that makes sense is for the smaller rivers to flow from the SW corner and the SE edge to form the larger river in the north. -edited for clarity |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jun 10, 2014 3:24:35 GMT -6
What jmccann said.
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Post by ravenheart87 on Jun 10, 2014 4:48:34 GMT -6
Sometimes rivers do split in two, it's called bifurcation.
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Post by robertsconley on Jun 10, 2014 7:40:13 GMT -6
The rivers on the Outdoor survival map flow to the north. Bifurcation is not a common river feature and occurs only in specific circumstances none of which are present on this map.
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Post by Harbinger on Jun 10, 2014 14:54:01 GMT -6
Thanks folks! I live in an area where rivers flow mostly North to South, so this seemed unnatural. So I will have this untamed wilderness offer the river as an easy way to float goods downstream back to civilization.
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Post by jmccann on Jun 10, 2014 22:51:20 GMT -6
How did any one determine that the river actually split in two? Tributaries can feed a river from any direction. It may simply be a large lake in the North of the map with the other streams feeding the main body of the river that actually runs to the South East eventually dumping into a Bay. Take a look at a map of the Susquehanna River Basin where Harrisburg, PA is located and you'll get my point. But, hey, I'm okay with saying the river runs North too. I'm just saying it's not as obvious as some would suggest and I don't feel there is one correct answer. I think if you assume earth like rivers you really have to contort things to get the OS river to flow south. Of course being fantasy, it is no problem to come up with divine intervention, rivers that flow uphill, whatever. I think implicit in the question though, is the idea that the river is a naturalistic, earth-like river. Even if not, it seems to me it is better to start with a rough understanding of earth-like rivers and then make deliberate variations, understanding the implications. I'll tell you what I see looking at a map of the Susquehanna. I know the river is flowing to the south into the Chesapeake, but just from the area right around Harrisburg I can't really tell if the river is flowing north or south. There are a couple of creeks, much smaller than the river, which flow into the river at roughly right angles. So there is no clue there which way the river flows. There is one creek that meanders a lot. Meandering areas are a location where rivers do tend to have bifurcations under the right circumstances - note that the OS map has no such pronounced meandering rivers. The difference in the sizes of the creek and the river means that I can't tell by the sizes of the rivers, but if two rivers of roughly equal size have a confluence you can tell the direction of flow by looking at the relative sizes. Rivers tend to get bigger going downstream. Following the river north though, there is a larger creek which flows into the Susquehanna. Knowing the shape that a confluence of rivers characteristically makes I have a clue the river is flowing south. Now let's look at the OS map. An important clue to the direction of flow of the river here is the relative size of the river as it flows north. Rivers increase in size as they flow since the lower parts drain a greater area than the upper parts (there are exceptions, but this is typical). The part of the OS river to the north is the widest. If you assume the rivers flow toward the south, you will see the rivers have to get narrower and narrower, which is the opposite of what we expect of rivers in a temperate climate (obviously, you can cook up explanations about why this would not be so). So to support that the river flows to the south, you have to not only explain all of the bifurcations, but also explain why the rivers get smaller downstream. Look at the north-flowing confluences/ south-flowing bifurcations - these either support the interpretation of naturalistic north-flowing confluences or else a whole series of unlikely bifurcations in a region which seems unlikely to support such bifurcations. Please note, I am not telling anyone how they should play, or what the rivers in their world should do. But if you are interested in interpreting the OS rivers naturalistically, as similar to earth rivers, I think you really will have a difficult time supporting south flowing rivers. If anyone can come up with a counter-example featuring multiple bifurcations from a large river, resulting in ever smaller streams radiating out over a similarly sized area with similar terrain I'd love to see it. |
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Post by jmccann on Jun 10, 2014 23:00:05 GMT -6
All, I'm gearing up to start a domain establishment campaign and am going to use the map from Outdoor Survival. On a game-related note, can you tell us more about the campaign? Will it be along the lines described in the Underworld and Wilderness Adventures? I'd like to hear more about the campaign. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 11, 2014 6:26:43 GMT -6
Should this thread be in the Underworld & Wilderness Exploration sub-forum?
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Post by Red Baron on Jun 11, 2014 8:52:31 GMT -6
Should this thread be in the Underworld & Wilderness Exploration sub-forum? Men & Magic does list OS under the "products you should buy" section at the front of the booklet, but this should probably be under U&W. |
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Post by Harbinger on Jun 11, 2014 22:14:22 GMT -6
All, I'm gearing up to start a domain establishment campaign and am going to use the map from Outdoor Survival. On a game-related note, can you tell us more about the campaign? Will it be along the lines described in the Underworld and Wilderness Adventures? I'd like to hear more about the campaign. It's going to be an adjunct to an existing monthly sandbox campaign that's been going on for 6 years. It's a little hard to describe the existing campaign as that has truly been a whirlwind of events through many different DMs and included armies of baphomet, ancient mysteries, a zombie apocalypse, a mega dungeon and high jinks on and under the sea and much much more. What I'm going to set up is a high-level exploration and domain management and war game using the ACKS and Domains at War rules. The players will also have lower level vassals with which they can do traditional hero stuff if they wish. I'm not good at making overland maps, and then I realized I had OS just sitting around. It's the perfect scale for an army campaign. I'll let you know how it goes. |
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Post by sulldawga on Jul 2, 2014 9:26:14 GMT -6
It's going to be an adjunct to an existing monthly sandbox campaign that's been going on for 6 years. It's a little hard to describe the existing campaign as that has truly been a whirlwind of events through many different DMs and included armies of baphomet, ancient mysteries, a zombie apocalypse, a mega dungeon and high jinks on and under the sea and much much more. What I'm going to set up is a high-level exploration and domain management and war game using the ACKS and Domains at War rules. The players will also have lower level vassals with which they can do traditional hero stuff if they wish. I'm not good at making overland maps, and then I realized I had OS just sitting around. It's the perfect scale for an army campaign. I'll let you know how it goes. Can you set up a PbP version of this campaign and let me play in it? Pretty please? |
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