The green goblins

[rossik]

Hi friends!

A good friend of mine was researching about the origin of the "green" goblin in D&D, as many older D&D books talk about yellow to red goblins. He thinks it came from Poul Anderson 3Hearts and 3Lions, and i think he is right about. But i came here to share this, and ask with you agree, or have more information about the oldest mention of green goblins that may had influence on Gygax and D&D.

[ravenheart87]

I only saw green goblins in 4th edition and Pathfinder. Drawing parallels between those and Appendix N is not a good idea, since they are very far away from the original source literature. If there's one thing that probably influenced green goblins, then it's Warhammer's greenskins.

Since ODnD is full of Marvel homages, I wouldn't be surprised if the gnoll illustration in Monsters and Treasures was based on Spider-man's Green Goblin.

[rossik]

May 30, 2014 7:02:12 GMT -6 ravenheart87 said:

I only saw green goblins in 4th edition and Pathfinder. Drawing parallels between those and Appendix N is not a good idea, since they are very far away from the original source literature. If there's one thing that probably influenced green goblins, then it's Warhammer's greenskins.

Since ODnD is full of Marvel homages, I wouldn't be surprised if the gnoll illustration in Monsters and Treasures was based on Spider-man's Green Goblin.

well, yeah, thats another thought. first of all, i always thought about warhammer as the popular source of green orcs. but you see, there are so many "obscure" homages Gygax payed , and since Poul Anderson is one of the Ap N author, i thought its a good idea to trace it.

im a AD&D player, so i cant tell much about older editions (well, thats why i am here!

i can remember many green goblins in 2ed. anyone remember them in older editions?

[ravenheart87]

I only recall brownish goblins from ADnD 2nd editions, but there is a huge amount of books, so who knows what I missed. That edition is already post-Gygax era product by the way.

[rossik]

May 30, 2014 7:16:11 GMT -6 ravenheart87 said:

That edition is already post-Gygax era product by the way.

yes, that bit of info i know, raven, ehehehe. but thanks for the insight.

it seems that, if there is a green goblin in O/B/1stA D&D, its not the common one. so maybe yeah, i do think warhammer can be the major influence, but i would love to have a more "official" note about it

but i think you are right

[scottenkainen]

The first green goblin I ever saw = circa 1982, the D&D "bendy" action figure line.

[Red Baron]

In Moria, a troll is described as green and scaly .

[jdjarvis]

I've been painting my goblins as green or yellowish for about 35 years now, also a few blue ones. I might have a couple orangish-red ones but I'm not sure if I over painted those. I'm figuring green goblins as an image goes back a fair bit.

[Deleted]

Nowhere in OD&D does it say goblins are green. I don't think there are any goblins in Three Hearts and Three Lions, but there may have been some goblin slaves in the "Pharisee" kingdom.

[Deleted]

May 30, 2014 7:02:12 GMT -6 ravenheart87 said:

If there's one thing that probably influenced green goblins, then it's Warhammer's greenskins.

The goblins in Warhammer weren't always green. They became green sometime in the late 80s. So something influenced them as well.

[Porphyre]

Green is probably the most "unnatural" color of skin for a humanoïd, and probably the one that is the most "visible" for painted miniatures, so I suppose that , in the case of Warhammer (wich is a wargame more than a RPG, and much more oriented towards the sale of miniatures), it's more a design thing.

[blackbarn]

I assumed they started being green when people thought of them as little versions of orcs (and those had been though of as green.) But I don't have a source for that at all. I remember D&D goblins being orange in color, from the time they were first described in detail, at least (AD&D?)

[Deleted]

So, who says Orcs are green? Certainly not Tolkien.

[snorri]

When I was a teenager, I considered orcs were blue, just like orca whales (killer whales), as the name is the same in frenh (Orque).
About goblins, my vision was Blizzard Passsoldo module cover's one.

[Deleted]

How about Green Goblin? Y'know, Spiderman's enemy? First showed in 1964.

[Harbinger]

Jun 7, 2014 21:26:28 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

So, who says Orcs are green? Certainly not Tolkien.

Or the cover of B2 and the Monster Manual. Orcs are most certainly not green.

[rossik]

Jun 15, 2014 6:42:25 GMT -6 Harbinger said:

Jun 7, 2014 21:26:28 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

So, who says Orcs are green? Certainly not Tolkien.

Or the cover of B2 and the Monster Manual. Orcs are most certainly not green.

i always thought that in the cover of B2, they were hobgoblins (because of the armor and hemlmets)

[ravenheart87]

Those are definitely hobgoblins.

[tog]

Not OD&D, but the computer game of Temple of Elemental Evil (3e, though) has orangey goblins.

Seems most of the humanoids are described as being "foul" colors in general; sickly green/yellow, fecal brown, grey/blue like dead flesh and like that. There seemed to be a link assumed between chaotic nature and foul, disgusting colors for flesh, clothing and armor.

[krusader74]

The New World Encyclopedia article on the Goblin says this:

In recent depictions, goblins have been portrayed as green in color, but this is only a modern tradition.

However, it doesn't cite a source for this specific proposition.

The Greek word kobalos (Κόβαλος) means an "impudent rogue", or "arrant knave". The Latin "cobalus", the French "gobelin", and the German "kobold" all derive from this word.

The Wikipedia article on the Kobold notes:

Another type of kobold known as the Hütchen is said to be 0.3–1 m (1–3 ft) tall, with red hair and beard, and clad in red or green clothing and a red hat and may even be blind.

Green clothing. In Medieval times, your social status determined the color of clothes you were legally allowed to wear:

• Red for nobility
• Brown and grey for peasants
• Green for merchants and bankers

I've written at length about Medieval banking in this post, and so it doesn't surprise me that that the long-standing connection between green clothes and banking still connects the color green to greed, envy, and jealousy. Shakespeare spoke of "green eyed jealousy" in the Merchant of Venice and "the green eyed monster" in Othello. The GURPS Goblins supplement says "Greed is the first great motivator behind the actions of goblins." So perhaps even if their skin is not green, Medieval goblins may clad themselves in green, because they are envious of bankers and merchants, and greedy of the wealth they have achieved.

Given the connection between clothes color and social status, its interesting to me that Medieval poets and artists began portraying the devil as either red or green. While we mostly associate the devil with the color red today, Chaucer connected the devil to the color green: the summoner of the Friar's Tale encounters a hunter who "hadde upon a courtepy of grene" and confesses himself to be a "feend." A "courtepy" is a kind of coat; this page has some nice drawings of Medieval clothing; this is what a courtepy looks like:

Also, the 15th century painting "Saint Wolfgang and the Devil" by Michael Pacher depicts the devil as green:

Prior to the Middle ages, the Romans associated green to Venus and sexuality. Before that the ancient Greeks and Egyptians associated green to growth, agriculture and the sea. These are positive associations, whereas the Medieval association with money, banking, and the devil is most definitely negative.

Our word "green" comes from the Proto-Indo-European root ghre/ghro/ghru which means "to grow" or "to become green." This page lists the Old/Middle/Modern English derivatives (as well as German/Italian/Greek).

It is important to note that all ancient languages don't make as clean a distinction between blue/green/grey as modern English---In Chinese, ancient Greek and Old Irish, green and blue were considered the same color. Perhaps this is because the archetype was the sea, which we'd call bluish-green today.

Green skin. There are several conditions that can cause the skin to turn green: anemia, amenorrhoea ("the green sickness"), or sepsis. Wearing copper jewelry can cause the skin to turn green. When copper corrodes it turns green and these green copper compounds can transfer to the skin. So perhaps goblins in your campaign wear a lot of cheap, copper jewelry, and it has stained their skin permanently green?

[tog]

Nice work, krusader, (notice the Devil in Pacher's painting is what one might call "sickly green"), but it gets even more interesting!

Cobalt, the element, was named after kobolds/goblins:

Miners had long used the name kobold ore (German for goblin ore) for some of the blue-pigment producing minerals; they were so named because they were poor in known metals, and gave poisonous arsenic-containing fumes upon smelting.

So it was tricky, probably worthless (interesting in the links with greed!) and poisonous, likely to turn your skin - what? - blue as you asphyxiated.

Cobalt compounds are famous among artists & glass/ceramic makers for the spectacular blue color of cobalt chloride, but there are also compounds which produce pink and blue-black, also popular colors for inimical humanoids.

And when you mix cobalt with zinc, what do you get? Green.

[magremore]

Was reading Three Hearts and Three Lions and remembered this thread. So in case anyone else researches this and finds themselves here: Anderson mentions “a short, green-skinned goblin slave” (bottom of p. 46 in the printing I'm reading).

[MormonYoYoMan]

Arneson's "Adventures in Fantasy" carried a Ditko-styled (but with armor) rough swipe of the Green Goblin - this time on horseback instead of his batwinged glider.

[Red Baron]

May 10, 2017 23:48:46 GMT -6 magremore said:

Was reading Three Hearts and Three Lions and remembered this thread. So in case anyone else researches this and finds themselves here: Anderson mentions “a short, green-skinned goblin slave” (bottom of p. 46 in the printing I'm reading).

Is that in the elf castle?

[magremore]

May 11, 2017 10:59:05 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

May 10, 2017 23:48:46 GMT -6 magremore said:

Was reading Three Hearts and Three Lions and remembered this thread. So in case anyone else researches this and finds themselves here: Anderson mentions “a short, green-skinned goblin slave” (bottom of p. 46 in the printing I'm reading).

Is that in the elf castle?

Yep. It’s one of Alfric’s slaves there.

[Fearghus]

Also mentioned in The Broken Sword by Anderson (published in the 50's)

Here and there scurried goblin thralls, a race halfway between elf and troll, green-skinned and squat...