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Post by TheObligatorySQL on May 27, 2014 17:44:45 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 19:13:48 GMT -6
Well, free is definitely a nice price. :-) I was getting ready to start a new D&D campaign this summer and was trying to decide which edition, for free I'll check it out and maybe even run the new edition.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 28, 2014 3:37:24 GMT -6
It's a little tough to wrap my brain around the options, but I had a lot of fun playing in a Next playtest so the base rules are pretty cool.
What is see is a few layers of gaming: LAYER ONE: Intro set. Inexpensive, pre-gen characters, module. LAYER TWO: Basic rules. Free download, full chargen, core rules. LAYER THREE: PH/DMG/MM. Expensive hardbacks, more options. LAYER FOUR: Later add-on books which are certain to materialize at some point.
I'm not sure where to go with this. The intro set certainly looks like a quick way into the game, and it has a nice price, but if the Basic rules are really a free download then maybe I bypass the intro set and go right to the real thing. Having pregens would certanly get us playing faster, however.
As to layers three and beyond ... again, I can't decide. I'm not sure how much I will want to buy into this product line. I've already got many different D&D variants (OD&D, AD&D, C&C, DCC) and don't know if I'm ready to ditch those for a new one, so I'm not sure about the hardbacks. I guess I should wait until I can flip through a copy in person, but my local game store is going to offer a special deal if I preorder the intro set, player's handbook and a module.
Bottom line is that I'm very torn on the whole thing.
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Post by kesher on May 28, 2014 7:58:43 GMT -6
I don't have an immediate link, but one of Mearls' early tweets was pretty clear that the Starter Set is aimed at new DMs. Given that, many of us could probably skip that with no issue, and move right to the Basic rules, which will be available at the same time as the SS. Personally, I'm all in. Providing a free, complete set of rules is the most right-headed thing WotC has done in a long time. To me, it shows they're paying attention to the current atmosphere, and I feel it pays proper tribute to the thousands of gamers who spent time and effort helping to develop the rules throughout the play test process. It also, of course, makes it possible for anyone with a passing interest to try things out with NO initial investment. Personally, I've preordered the SS and core books at Amazon's prices, and am looking forward to starting a gaming group with the neighborhood kids this summer.
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Post by funkaoshi on May 28, 2014 8:41:41 GMT -6
Yeah, the starter set is meant for people who have never played D&D before, as I understand things. It's an introduction to table top role playing games.
I'm looking forward to 5e. I liked the really early playtest rules, and it sounds like the "core" game is going to be those simple rules. As I understand things, the DMG includes all sorts of optional rules for people who like more complicated games. I think the PHB adds more classes to mix, etc.
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randyb
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Post by randyb on May 28, 2014 10:17:11 GMT -6
I will be downloading the Basic PDF and probably using it to start my 9 year old son in RPGs.
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Post by llenlleawg on May 28, 2014 10:46:57 GMT -6
@finarvyn, I think we need to adjust your "layers" a bit. One way to look at it is this:
LAYER ONE: Basic D&D (free pdf download, full chargen for levels 1-20, fully playable D&D which is also fully compatible with *anything* in...) LAYER TWO: rule expansions (expensive glossy books, namely PHB, MM, DMG; any *one* of these, *all*, or even *none* may be used, and none of them *presumes* the other)
To this I would add LAYER ZERO: Starter Set (designed to help introduce people to D&D who haven't played, giving an adventure, general kinds of rules, pregen PCs levellable up to 5th)
Part of what makes this work is somewhat adjusting our expectation/terminology. We have grown accustomed to seeing a PHB as a basic rule set. That's no longer the case. The 96 pp Basic D&D pdf is, and in fact, requires nothing else to play (or, that's what they're telling us).
If anyone's uncertain and has played D&D before, I'd just start with Basic D&D and have a go. The folks here are likely to leave it at that, being creative enough to fill in any "blanks" that come along in actual play (e.g. why worry about a paladin class until someone asks to play one?). People *new* to D&D might be well served by the Starter Set *and* then the Basic D&D download. I wouldn't direct people to the full books until they were actually playing and enjoying it! To be sure, I started with Holmes, and only slowly added things from the supplements, plus first the MM, then the PHB, then the DMG. The thing is, I was adding to a game I already knew how to play and enjoyed, and to be honest there were all sorts of things in the AD&D books we never used. I'm not saying everyone needs to follow that path, but part of me feels as though gamers would be well served in thinking of "Basic D&D" as really and truly D&D in its current iteration, and everything else as an add-on, with the game design bonus that everything in Basic D&D just is the same thing in the PHB, and that even the character classes are designed exactly the same way, just without the dizzying array of options.
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Koren n'Rhys
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on May 28, 2014 14:41:06 GMT -6
Yeah, the starter set is meant for people who have never played D&D before, as I understand things. It's an introduction to table top role playing games. I'm looking forward to 5e. I liked the really early playtest rules, and it sounds like the "core" game is going to be those simple rules. As I understand things, the DMG includes all sorts of optional rules for people who like more complicated games. I think the PHB adds more classes to mix, etc. I think this is correct. For someone who's never played and has no stock of adventure material to use already? Here's the Starter Set to see if you like the game. Pre-gens, an adventure, and advice for the would-be DM. Guys like us who have played other editions, have a stockpile of old modules and just want the Core Rules? Cool! Just download the free PDF and we hope you like the new rules. If you do, there will be lots of new 5E adventures, organized play, miniatures and what-not to spend your money on. The guys that are all-in and have to have the full set of books to run the current edition? We got your PHB, DMG and MM right here. Game on! I was in for the Starter Set and PHB, pre-ordered on Amazon. If I like what I see, I'll likely pick up the first part of Tyranny at Gencon and see what happens after that.
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machpants
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Post by machpants on May 28, 2014 17:42:49 GMT -6
The other cool thing is the adventures are playable with just the DL rules. I remember looking at the FR box set as a kid and not knowing what I needed to use it. I was playing BECMI and not sure if it would work, I only knew that it wasn't a standalone game. Whereas seeing a cool adventure in a shop, open book and see you can get all the rules required at WotC website is a great idea.
As long as we can get the books in PDF for those that want it, and they allow some sort of compatibility licence (not a full on OGL) but something that allows 3PP to make stuff for 5E I think WotC has blown it out of the park. Oh and make all the DNDClassics stuff PoD
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Post by geoffrey on May 28, 2014 18:38:16 GMT -6
I will download the free rules and evaluate them. I do not plan on buying anything, however.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 23:00:40 GMT -6
Free D&D is a good thing. It's a smart way to encourage new people to try the game. Seems like it should be a win for players and publishers alike.
That said, as someone entirely content playing original D&D, I don't anticipate the new edition offering anything of interest to me at all. What is the appeal?
That's a sincere question if anyone feels like sharing why they are personally interested in the new edition.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 23:31:42 GMT -6
I can answer from my POV. I've been playing OD&D since the mid-1970's and, like you, I'm happy with it. OD&D is my favorite rules set, I'd play it to the exclusion of all others if I had the opportunity.
For me the appeal of a new edition is the attraction of a new edition to a larger pool of potential players. To my way of thinking, anything that grows the hobby is good. If it's a version of the game I can enjoy, then everybody wins.
I'd like to play "my" version of the game but, if I find 5th edition to my liking? I'll have more opportunities to roll the dice. HTH.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 28, 2014 23:55:32 GMT -6
I'm interested in the new Basic D&D rules, and would have been so even if I had to pay for them. The way I see it, the new 96 page Basic D&D will essentially be Mike Mearl's compilation of house rules; a product of 40 years of rules experimentation, all neatly packaged and balanced by the WotC game statisticians. They're intended to be picked over for "good stuff", just like any other rules. The acid test for me will be whether I'll be able to hop right in and run B1 or B2 or any of the other classics I have on my shelf, with minimal screwing around. I.e., if I can do it mostly on the fly in my head, then that will be a strong indicator that the 5E rules really are good 'ol D&D rules. If more serious surgery is necessary, then they might be something else. FWIW, I have no interest in the new "big three" books (PHB, DMG, MM). They're just too big for me--what kind of D&D needs 1,000 pages of rules? And the cover monsters are ridiculously large But seriously; what can these books contain that we haven't seen before, tried, and ultimately rejected in favor of the (various) classic D&D approaches? I expect the best/broadest appeal parts of 5E to appear in the new Basic. The rest, I suspect, will be material with progressively narrower appeal.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 0:03:57 GMT -6
I plan on downloading the pdf and give it a good look through, possibly even try it out. Otherwise I plan on stripping it clean of interesting additions and house ruling them into my current game.
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 29, 2014 2:29:39 GMT -6
Interesting that they're releasing it in two stages, with the full rules in the second version coming at the same time as the PHB.
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Post by llenlleawg on May 29, 2014 3:10:28 GMT -6
Free D&D is a good thing. It's a smart way to encourage new people to try the game. Seems like it should be a win for players and publishers alike. That said, as someone entirely content playing original D&D, I don't anticipate the new edition offering anything of interest to me at all. What is the appeal? That's a sincere question if anyone feels like sharing why they are personally interested in the new edition. For my part, I'd say that what I've seen/playtested is enough like classic iterations of the game that I don't really have to change playstyle, but that it will open me up to other players either newly coming to the game or who were introduced to it during the WotC years (3e or 4e). There's no real need to switch if you like OD&D and have folks to game with who also like OD&D. If, however, you want an expression of the game we all know and love which meets current sensibilities of game design while being clearly and recognizably D&D, then I think it's worth a shot.
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machpants
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Post by machpants on May 29, 2014 3:11:11 GMT -6
Sort of, (answering to Vile EDIT) the PHB is not the PHB of 4E and earlier. It is more of an advanced PHB. It will include the same option given in the free Basic PDF, but also much more. I suspect there will only be one 'type' of each class and race in the Basic book e.g. a Cleric of a Healing Deity and a Hill dwarf, but no Mountain Dwarf or War Deity Cleric. If you are happy playing the standard provided to you by WotC (or like most of us here, you just house rule the heck out of it!) then the Basic rules are good to go for as much gaming as you want. But if you want someone else to give you new classes or options on existing classes, (and this is not new and has happened since day dot of D&D in magazines etc) then buy the PHB for more stuff. The DMG looks to be optional rules that you can add to adjust the flavour of your DnD (e.g. grid rules to simulate 3E) and also advise on campaigns etc. The MM is just more monsters, which is always good IMO.
WotCs two hardcover adventures they are releasing, written by the excellent Kobolds, are totally playable with just the free PDF. It will contain all the rules you need. If you want more, then buy the rule books. But you don't have to. To me it is a very clever idea.
As to what 5E has to offer. IMO it is a very simple system, like OD&D, and can easily go to the background, unlike 3/4E and to a lesser extent AD&D Editions. But it has modern organisation sensibilities (roll high d20 add mods to hit a DC) etc. Is this for many of the posters here? Heck no, happy with what they have got and rightly so. But if you want to try something different or show some shiny to get new players interested, it is great! I can see me playing this for sure. It is closer to OD&D (well classic/BECMI/BX) than 3 or 4E and really closer to the idea of the 2 books, add what you want from the supplements than AD&D 1E and 2E.
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Post by llenlleawg on May 29, 2014 3:12:15 GMT -6
Interesting that they're releasing it in two stages, with the full rules in the second version coming at the same time as the PHB. I think they just want to have enough rules out to go with the Starter Set, but don't want anyone to have too much of a "head start" over the first, large-scale public use of the rules at Gen Con (coinciding with the release of the PHB).
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Post by llenlleawg on May 29, 2014 3:16:37 GMT -6
If you are happy playing the standard provided to you by WotC (or like any one you just house rule the heck out of it!) then the Basic rules are good to go for as much gaming as you want. This is, I think, the best part of the new release. There will be a core to D&D that we all more or less already know, that will be designed to be able to be expanded while also is entirely compatible with the options in the bigger books and with adventures. This also means that our own house rules and variant rules will, if they keep compatible with the Basic rules, also fit in (I would think) seamlessly with the published adventures. So, if you want a different way to have a paladin and don't want to bother with the PHB, then just go ahead and make one compatible with the Basic rules. You're good to go!
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machpants
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Post by machpants on May 29, 2014 3:19:32 GMT -6
The starter set is not really part of the D&D releases to current player's of RPGs. It is really aimed at something you can give to someone with no RPG background that they can play from the box. Thus it is aimed at new DMs. It is like a board game in that you can pick this up, read the rules and have everything you need for an evenings gaming. You can play it again, like a board game, if you wish (although what is in there probably doesn't have the same re-playability as a board game). If you want more, well look a free PDF pointed out in the box with more rules and advice. Even more? Then we have these books for you. But for an experienced RPGer there is no reason to get the starter set, as it is a starter in RPGs not a starter in 5E. As the entire basic rules are available in a free PDF on the same day, no real point picking up a canned adventure with pregens and DM advice. But it is so cheap I still will! An important point IMO, the Starter Set is for RPG newbies to get a taste, get addicted, not for us to get a taste of 5E.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 29, 2014 4:43:19 GMT -6
I don't anticipate the new edition offering anything of interest to me at all. What is the appeal? I have a friend who owns a game store, and we were talking about the new D&D last night. The short answer is that when folks come into his store and have never played before, they almost always ask about Dungeons and Dragons. Not "what's a good role playing game?" but specifically about D&D. Product recognition among non-gamers is still that strong. He said that the last year or so has been bad because all he can recommend is Pathfinder, and that since all of the Pathfinder books are online he doesn't sell much product. With D&D coming back, he's sure that he can sell more RPG books to newcomers. So, when a newbie comes in to buy D&D what "flavor" do you want it to be? Part of why I got involved in the Next playtest is because I wanted some input on this, and was hoping that it would encourage a more minimalist "old school" style over a 3E/4E min/max type of play. Also, when stores have demo games they hardly ever demo OD&D. I may run a game of OD&D for "Free RPG Day" but I'm not sure since most players can't buy that exact product easily. (I've run DCC for the past few years; now may be C&C or Metamorphosis Alpha. Not sure yet.)
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 5:43:21 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses to my question. The users of this forum remain some of the most helpful and articulate I have encountered in an internet community.
Nothing too surprising in your answers, but all of them stated clearly and convincingly. WotC should produce some sort of promotional communication targeting the OSR demographic and featuring quotes like these.
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Post by kesher on May 29, 2014 8:09:55 GMT -6
Hey, @droll, I wondered when you'd chime in! For my part, I agree with everything said above, and I'll add that it will help fuel my kids' interest in playing. It's fascinating to me, but they're so used to color everything, that they tend to dismiss anything that's black and white. Frex, my oldest loves the Bone comic, but is completely uninterested in the black and white compilation volume. Instead, he prefers to check out whatever smaller color compilation is in the library and read that. So, as an adult, I can appreciate, on a number of levels, the DIY aesthetic of ODD, but honestly, when I first saw a copy as a teenager, I thought it looked ridiculous. This makes total sense in that my first exposure was to the layout and illustrasted aesthetic of the Moldvay red box and, shortly thereafter, to the corpus of ADD, including modules. Generationally, I had no expectation of color (besides covers), but I did expect a certain quality of presentation, which I found lacking in ODD. Once the Starter Set and core books for 5e appear in my house, I imagine many hours of my boys just sitting and flipping through the pages, soaking in the D&D atmosphere, just like I did with earlier editions, and for me that's worth the (Amazon-reduced!) price of admission.
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Post by scottenkainen on May 29, 2014 8:28:28 GMT -6
That's tragic, Kesher. My icon aside, Bone is best appreciated in black and white.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by TheObligatorySQL on May 29, 2014 14:42:55 GMT -6
Also, from what I've heard from some people (don't quote me on this), by signing up with D&D Insider, you will have access to material to support every edition of the game, even conversion documents to convert something of one edition into the new game and back.
Assuming the price point doesn't change, $6-$10 a month for access to that type of material doesn't seem like that bad of a deal: I'd be down with that.
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Koren n'Rhys
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on May 29, 2014 15:27:40 GMT -6
Interesting. I hope those conversion docs make it out into the wild for free though...
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machpants
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Post by machpants on May 29, 2014 22:11:03 GMT -6
Also, from what I've heard from some people (don't quote me on this), by signing up with D&D Insider, you will have access to material to support every edition of the game, even conversion documents to convert something of one edition into the new game and back. Assuming the price point doesn't change, $6-$10 a month for access to that type of material doesn't seem like that bad of a deal: I'd be down with that. Not sure about that, I have been keeping a very close eye on it and haven't heard that at all. What Wizards have been doing is releasing products for multiple rule sets 3.5E (as good a Pathfinder), 4E and 5E in one product.
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Post by llenlleawg on May 30, 2014 3:53:01 GMT -6
Also, from what I've heard from some people (don't quote me on this), by signing up with D&D Insider, you will have access to material to support every edition of the game, even conversion documents to convert something of one edition into the new game and back. Assuming the price point doesn't change, $6-$10 a month for access to that type of material doesn't seem like that bad of a deal: I'd be down with that. I don't know about that (re: D&D Insider and access to every edition). Certainly nothing at WotC has indicated anything of the sort. There was, however, and interesting tweet by Board Game Geek indicating that "sidebars in the new DMG help DMs to customize the game to match past editions of D&D." I'm not quite sure what that would mean, exactly, except that some sidebars might have information on, e.g., tactical movement/combat in the manner of 4e. What other specific emulation, I couldn't say. What does seem to be the case is that the DMG is going to pull back the curtain and open up the hood, so to speak, to show the inner working of monster and class design, discuss ways that one could tweak those things in one way or another, and even produce one's own new material with the design goals of WotC in mind.
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Post by kesher on May 30, 2014 6:26:45 GMT -6
What you said. Also, whether or not WotC creates conversion docs, you know fans will.
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machpants
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Post by machpants on Jun 6, 2014 16:43:54 GMT -6
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