Dwarven Cleric - Level Limit Advice

[discuit]

Hello all,

I have a player looking to play a Dwarven Cleric in our game, i personally have no problem with this at all, i was just wondering what a suitable level limit would be in most peoples eyes?

Cheers.

[Deleted]

Shooting from the hip?

As fighters, dwarves are limited to 6th level. Elves are capped at 8th level as magic-users.

Why not split the difference and limited a dwarf cleric to 7th level? Just an idea.

[discuit]

7th it is! Weirdly, that is exactly what my player suggested!

[Finarvyn]

May 22, 2014 3:33:02 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

As fighters, dwarves are limited to 6th level. Elves are capped at 8th level as magic-users. Why not split the difference and limited a dwarf cleric to 7th level? Just an idea.

My initial thought was that if dwarven fighters are limited to 6th level then their clerics ought to be some level below that (maybe 4th) but I think your logic is pretty good.

[randyb]

May 22, 2014 4:35:32 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

May 22, 2014 3:33:02 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

As fighters, dwarves are limited to 6th level. Elves are capped at 8th level as magic-users. Why not split the difference and limited a dwarf cleric to 7th level? Just an idea.

My initial thought was that if dwarven fighters are limited to 6th level then their clerics ought to be some level below that (maybe 4th) but I think your logic is pretty good.

Max fighter level of 6th and max cleric level of 7th weakly implies that clerics are more influential than fighters in this dwarven society. This is neither inevitable nor inescapable, but it does introduce some interesting possibilities for dwarven culture in this campaign/setting.

[discuit]

Yeh, that is a very good point, i'll chat with him, maybe 5 is a better reflection of our current game world when it comes to Dwarven culture. I just want him to have fun, so I'm not going to sweat the details overly much. Lets be realistic here, chances of him ever even getting to lvl 5 are slim.

[Stormcrow]

On the other hand, clerics are basically just a combination of fighter and magic-user, so level 7 makes sense in that way.

[Falconer]

Suggest a multi-class character, as that will take some of the sting out of the level limit.

[discuit]

Oh, i'm sure he will definitely multi-class if he lives that long.

[idrahil]

Think about what you want to limit. At level 5 the Dwarven Cleric will be limited to 2nd level spells and at max, turning a mummy. At level 7 max allows up lo level 4 spells and Spectre as the most powerful turn possible.

[Finarvyn]

I agree with randyb's notion that allowing a dwarf to achieve a higher level in cleric than in fighter makes a statement about clerics in dwarven society. I'd rather say that the top dwarves are fighters, which is why I suggested maybe a level 4 cap. However, I see this as a situation where each GM gets to decide what works best in their own campaign.

I think it also comes down to the PC cleric versus the NPC cleric. I would allow NPC clerics to advance higher than PC clerics.

[waysoftheearth]

A agree with Finarvyn that the top dwarfs are likely fighter-types. I was also going to comment on the spell level cap, but idrahil beat me to it

I'm not sure that the magic-user level limit for elves is especially relevant to dwarf clerics. FWIW, I'd go for 5th level as an arbitrary cap on dwarf clerics. This keeps them under dwarf fighters, gives them the same maximum hit dice as Halfling fighters, and enables them to memorise 1st and 2nd level clerical spells. They could still use clerical scrolls of any spell level, of course.

Regarding dual- (not multi-) classed characters: OD&D (and thus DD) has a very generous method of XP allocation in that a PC can simply stop earning XP in his capped class, and start putting 100% of his earned XP into his alternate class.

Personally, I like the Greyhawk method better (dividing XP evenly between both classes, even when progress is no longer possible in a class), since it means a level-capped class remains a liability thereafter.

Also worth noting: Since a cleric must be lawful and a thief cannot be lawful, the only dual-class option available to the dwarf cleric would be a cleric/fighter. This character would be a fighter permanently restricted to clerical arms! That would be an interesting challenge, for sure

(Where is that War Hammer +3 hidden??)

[talysman]

Here's how I use level limits:

- iconic class for race is capped at 8
- other classes, except Thief, are capped at 4
- short races lower the cap for fighters proportional to human size: dwarves are 3/4ths human size, so fighter level is capped at 6.

So I would cap dwarf clerics at 4, but that's just me.

[cooper]

The reason (or a reason at least) that dwarves are limited to 6th level is that their saving throws then bump them up to 10th level. If one capped the cleric at 4, then the saving throws of dwarf clerics would be much worse than dwarf fighters of 6th level. 5th level cleric is the minimum to achieve saving throw parity.

Since no demihuman may reach name level in 0d&d, then 7th level should be the conceivable top end, however 7th level clerics have the same HD as 6th level fighters, surely dwarf fighters should have more HD than dwarf clerics.

Furthermore, elf wizards are barred from the top two tiers of spells (5th and 6th). It would seem to reason, dwarf clerics--with all of their inherent bonuses should also be so limited. So 5th level.

Perhaps only human clerics should be able to turn the most powerful undead, this also pegs dwarf clerics at 5th level. These last two restrictions (spell limits and turning limits) are especially important if dwarves can multiclass cleric/fighter as access to magic axes and swords are a great boon in addition to the magic hammer boon.

So, 4th level is too harsh with saving throws, 6th level grants to many spells and turning ability. 5th level is the sweet spot both as a single class and multi.

[waysoftheearth]

I agree with cooper's logic re: HD and saving throws. 5th level seems to me to be a very sensible cap for the dwarf cleric.

I don't agree that a dual-classed cleric/fighter would have use of the fighter's weaponry, however. I believe he would forever be be subject to the clerical limitation against piercing/edged weapons (which is why the enchanted War Hammers would be so important to this character).

In fact, DD3 says:

A dual-classed cleric is always restricted in his choice of weaponry and a dual-classed magic-user (other than an elf, who may act as a magic-user while wearing magical armor) must always go unarmored. A dual-classed thief is always restricted to leather armor.

(Vol1, p16)

The cleric/fighter would still benefit from the fighter's HD, saves, attack matrix, multiple attacks, and morale benefits, so would have meaningful advancement none-the-less.

[Porphyre]

Greyhawk says "Dwarf clerics are found as high as 7th level (Lama), and they can cure and resurrect their own. These clerics are also fighters."

Sounds goode nough to me.

[Falconer]

He would probably be pretty useless if his curative spells only worked on other Dwarves, unless there are a lot of Dwarves in the party.

[waysoftheearth]

Jun 3, 2014 15:29:02 GMT -6 Falconer said:

He would probably be pretty useless if his curative spells only worked on other Dwarves, unless there are a lot of Dwarves in the party.

I don't think this is completely so Falconer.

The cleric is primarily a weapon vs undead, and he can perform this function regardless of whether his cure light wounds spell functions for dwarfs.

Even if we're thinking about a "healer" type character, the cleric can memorise so few cures (at most 2 cure light wounds spells for a theoretical 5th level dwarf cleric), that the majority healing is more likely to fall to scrolls, potions, or a staff of healing.

[Porphyre]

besides, he can also make use of other spells : detect evil, detect magic, find traps, etc.