Original D&D Discussion
« What Gives With Alignment? »

Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
May 22, 2013, 4:35am




Original D&D Discussion :: Community :: OD&D Workshop :: What Gives With Alignment?
Page 1 of 2 » Jump to page   Go    [Search This Thread] [Share Topic] [Print]
 AuthorTopic: What Gives With Alignment? (Read 602 times)
waysoftheearth
Moderator
*****
member is offline

[avatar]

[ImmersiveInk]



Joined: Sept 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,217
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Karma: 195
 What Gives With Alignment?
« Thread Started on Sept 21, 2012, 11:45pm »

What gives indeeeed? Why should a player choose one alignment over another... or have an alignment at all?


Well, to start, there are the alignment tongues...


The Alignment Tongues

I've never especially liked the idea of alignment tongues, perhaps because there's no clear analogy with real life. But recently I've been thinking the alignment tongues do fit nicely with the idea of alignment "temples". It's easy to think that a "temple of law" or a "temple of chaos" could each have their own language, and that this language would be known to their respective clergy and templars (including clerics and anti-clerics). The clerical spell scrolls would likely be penned in these scripts too. However, a John Citizen or a regular fighting man would be less likely to know these temple tongues -- although some individuals might -- in much the same manner that the medieval clergy used Latin despite their flock being largely ignorant of it.

The alignment tongues would therefore not be automatically "known to all", but would instead be intimately associated with the alignment temples, and would hence be useful in identifying members of that temple, for provoking a positive reaction from those of an allied temple, for provoking a negative reaction from those of an opposed temple, and (possibly) for identifying clerical and/or anti-clerical scrolls.


Hirelings and Loyalty

There is also the matter of hirelings.

PCs (if they are wise) will likely look for hired swords as soon as they can afford them. Alignment doesn't come into play except that chaotics can hire Orcs who are half as expensive as are Men. That is to say chaotics will be able to afford mercenary muscle that much sooner than will lawfuls or neutrals, and/or will be able to afford twice as much of it.

Then there is hireling loyalty to consider. OD&D is brief on the matter stating only that Man, Elf and Dwarf hirelings will be relatively loyal, but saying no such thing about Orc hirelings. It is reasonably to assume then, that Orcs are relatively disloyal compared to Men, Elves and Dwarfs -- which makes for a certain logic considering they are comparatively cheap.

One might choose to ascribe this pattern of loyalty to the alignments of the respective hirelings -- Orcs are chaotic and neutral, Men can be of any alignment, and Elves and Dwarfs are neutral and lawful.

The referee might further rule that chaotic hirelings (and/or chaotic masters) apply a -2 loyalty adjustment, and that lawful hirelings (and/or lawful masters) apply a +2 loyalty adjustment. This very notion is given explicit treatment in AD&D, and it justifies, to some extent, the different costs of various mercenary types.


Inheritance

There is also inheritance to consider, and more specifically the likelihood of "getting any".

Should a PC meet an untimely demise his worldly goods become the property of his heir. Whether this is practical or not the custom of inheritance is "the law" -- it is what all proper law abiding citizens expect to happen to their goods when they die. In game terms, the inheritance rule allows a player to start a fresh PC without loosing all the loot he had previously accumulated.

Should a PC meet his end in some far off venture, returning his body and his goods may not be practical. This duty will fall to his adventuring comrades, or whomever else happens to be about -- possibly even the fellow who has just slain him.

A lawful PC would always do the right thing by a fallen comrade, and hence would rightfully expect the same proper and lawful treatment himself. Whether or not this is realistic a lawful PC can still expect that word of his demise will reach his relatives, that his remains receive a lawful burial, and that his worldly possessions will be passed on to his rightful heir.

A neutral PC would do the right thing by a fallen comrade if it was convenient, or if there was something in it for him (such as a reward, or being owed a personal debit by an influential family). He wouldn't have any problem "borrowing" the fallen PC's gear in the interim, perhaps intending to return it (or some of it) later... next time he happened to be in town on other business -- if he remembers. And if he happens to have spent some of that gold in the meanwhile... oh well, the relatives will be none the wiser. He suspects he would receive the same sort of indifference himself. And so he would.

A chaotic PC would always do the wrong thing by a fallen comrade. He would loot and/or defile the body without a second thought and d**n the relatives too. He would spread lies and rumours about how his comrade fell just for the hell of it. He expects no better treatment himself, and nor should he.



XP By Alignment

Finally (well, finally for this initial missive) there is the possibility of the referee awarding XP based on alignment. Seeing that players ultimately desire XP and advancement, this practice might assist players in running their PCs according to their stated alignments.

Speculation aside, there are three main mechanisms by which XP are awarded: 1) for winning combat, 2) for acquiring treasure, and 3) for achieving goals.

Here are some ways in which each of these might be made into alignment specific awards:

Combat Based XP

Lawful PCs are part of a team and get an equal share of XP earned for any combat that they participate in, regardless of who actually defeated the opposition. They earn double XP for defeating chaotics, but only half XP for defeating lawfuls.

Neutral PCs are out for themselves get XP according to their own achievements only, including XP per hit point of damage caused on a pro-rata basis. XP earned is not adjusted for the alignment of opponents.

Chaotic PCs are out to cause trouble. They get the full XP for any opponent which they themselves slay or defeat (including other PCs), even if others contributed almost all of the effort. They earn double XP for defeating lawfuls, and regular XP for defeating chaotics and neutrals.


Treasure Based XP

Lawful PCs gain an equal share of all XP attributable to treasure which is openly divided among the players, regardless of who actually gets the treasure.

Neutral PCs gain XP only for any treasure they themselves gain. This included any openly divided share of the spoils, and any loot taken in secret/by force and not subject to division among the players.

Chaotic PCs gain XP for any treasure taken in secret/by force and not subject to division among the players. They also gain double XP for any spoils they take over and above an equal fair share of any loot which is divided among the players.


Goal Based XP

The referee may desire to award goal based XP for completion of quests and/or other goals.

In this case, the referee should determine whether any particular quest or adventure that the players completed was "lawful" or "chaotic" or "neutral".

This should be reasonably obvious. However, as a guide, assume that any activity that reinforces/progresses lawful society and/or the influence of law, or that subverts the influence of chaos is probably "lawful". Any activity that subverts lawful society and/or undermines the influence of law, or that progresses the cause of chaos is probably "chaotic". Anything in between is probably "neutral".

With this in mind, the referee can adjust earned XP as follows:

Where LAWFUL goals are concerned:
. Lawful PCs gain full XP for progressing/achieving lawful goals.
. Neutral PCs gain only half XP.
. Chaotic PCs gain no XP for progressing/achieving lawful goals, but gain full XP for subverting/disrupting lawful goals.

Where NEUTRAL goals are concerned (including "just looking for loot"):
. Lawful PCs gain only half XP.
. Neutral PCs gain full XP.
. Chaotic PCs gain only half XP.

Where CHAOTIC goals are concerned:
. Lawful PCs gain no XP for progressing/achieving chaotic goals, but gain full XP for subverting/disrupting chaotic goals.
. Neutral PCs gain only half XP.
. Chaotic PCs gain full XP for progressing/achieving chaotic goals.



Well, that's something of a start at least.


Enjoy :)


edit: grammar
« Last Edit: Sept 22, 2012, 7:48am by waysoftheearth »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Ynas Midgard
Level 4 Theurgist
**
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 146
Location: Hungary
Karma: 5
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #1 on Sept 22, 2012, 3:57am »

Right now, I don't have time to contribute to this thread; however, I exalt thee for this is a nicely done summary of the expected effects of Alignment (and comes especially handy for me).
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

"We don't explore characters; we explore dungeons."
http://ynasmidgard.blogspot.com/
llenlleawg
Level 4 Theurgist
**
member is offline





Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Karma: 6
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #2 on Sept 22, 2012, 10:34am »

This is an interesting set of proposals, esp. re: experience and the "alignment" of given quests. If you wanted to expand that idea, you might want to allow that the quest itself might not have an alignment, so much as the character's reason for going. Consider, for example, the historical age of exploration. Some travelled the seas to bring the light of their faith to those who had not heard the Good News (bracket, for a moment, your personal objections if you have them!), some to explore unknown lands, some to grow in knowledge, some to make a name for themselves, some to carve out a kingdom of their own, some to grow rich from plunder, some to spread the glory of their king, etc. In fact, most people had several, simultaneous desires (e.g. Christopher Columbus). So, in D&D terms, you might want to know why a given PC is going on the quest they choose, and allow that, at least in chivalric literature, "seeking adventure and doing deeds of heroism and chivalry" is a perfectly Lawful desire.

I have to agree with you re: alignment languages. Honestly, I think they are silly. For the most part, I find the games works when most everyone can speak to most everyone else. You need to know languages to read, say, ancient texts, treasure maps, odd inscriptions, incantations, etc. In that case, having a "Dark Speech" for Chaos or a Supernal/Celestial/Heavenly language for Law might work, but the idea of Bob the peasant not being able to understand his wife when she's speaking to her children because he's Neutral and they are Lawful, or even more oddly the idea that he used to understand them but, having taken a moral turn for the worse, he now finds their whole speech unintelligible, is, at least for me, just silly. If we say that alignment tongues are only to speak about alignment-based things, then why have the languages at all, or at least why have them for game/play purposes?
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
thorswulf
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Aug 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 598
Karma: 17
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #3 on Sept 22, 2012, 3:08pm »

For some silly reason, I always visualize Lawful based languages as being written Gothic Blackletter. Chaotic languages are in some funky looking script tat looks like a cross between a ransom note of cut out letters and runes. Neutral looks like Unical. Just my slightly off kilter observations..... I think I'd better rest now.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
SMKSensei
Level 8 Warlock
****
member is offline

[avatar]

Oe, Chainmail, Delving Deeper, Labyrinth Lord Society, GangBusters, Boot Hill 1e...


[homepage]

Joined: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Karma: 72
Posted using the ProBoards Mobile AppRe: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #4 on Sept 22, 2012, 3:17pm via the ProBoards Mobile App »

In all my years since 81, I've never been with a group that thought twice about alignment language. We always laughed at it. :-/
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

Rolling it old-skool since 1981,

Sean Michael Kelly
http://LinkedIn.com/in/TheLeadershipGeek
GooglePlus: http://gplus.to/TheLdrshipGeek
www.TheLeadershipGeek.com
Twitter: @TheLdrshipGeek
Harrisburg, PA USA
Cameron DuBeers
Level 9 Sorcerer
*****
member is offline

[avatar]

Did I Make My Save?



Joined: Nov 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,554
Location: Austin TX USA
Karma: 151
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #5 on Sept 22, 2012, 3:48pm »

I treat alignment languages much like Latin. Certain classes and the privileged classes tend to speak it fluently, others know a few words.

Clerics & anti-clerics get it free as a class ability, anyone else has to spend a language "slot" to be able to speak more than a few basic words/concepts.

This also adds a layer of intrigue, speaking an alignment tongue is like speaking the argot of any sub-culture: it gives the speaker a greater chance of being accepted. Assassins (NPCs IMC) are said to speak many languages ...
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #6 on Sept 22, 2012, 4:22pm »

Alignment language comes into d&d from tolkiens 3 axis alignment system in his lectures on beowulf. (law christianity/neutral pagan/chaos monsters). It is pure tolkien and alignment languages make perfect sense.
For those interested, I cover Tolkiens interpretation of Anglo-Saxon 3 part alignment system (Law/Neutrality/Chaos) HERE. Poul Anderson and Michael Moocock, aren't really the ones who inspired gygax. Best evidence of course being that the 3 alignments exist in CHAINMAIL and directly mimic Tolkien's Hobbit and Lotr (putting werebears/beorn in the neutral camp for example).
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
talysman
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Nov 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 663
Karma: 19
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #7 on Sept 22, 2012, 5:54pm »

I doubt Gygax or Arneson heard Tolkien's lectures on Beowulf. However, they definitely read Poul Anderson.

A battle between Law and Chaos actually was pretty common in SF literature starting in the '40s and thus shows up in fantasy literature written by science fiction authors (Poul Anderson, Gordon R. Dickson, later Michael Moorcock.) It's influenced by World War II (Anderson depicted Hitler as being one of the leaders of Chaos in Operation Chaos) and by religion-driven anti-science groups (again, Operation Chaos has the rise of a gnostic church opposed to scientific investigation as a major plot element.)

Of course, neither Tolkien nor the SF writers of the post-WWII world said anything about alignment languages. That seems to be a pure D&D invention, perhaps inspired by liturgical languages.
« Last Edit: Sept 22, 2012, 5:55pm by talysman »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #8 on Sept 23, 2012, 1:34am »

Actually, it was published during Tolkiens life. It's a great read for anyone who can get their hands on it. Gygax certainly was aware of it, because--as I mentioned, Gygax originally went with a tolkien theme with the fantasy supplement to chainmail. Anderson, moorcock and vance came later.

Lawful and Neutral are defined by their relationship to chaos. Where the lawful (christian) perview is that chaos (monsters) is the enemy of their god, and of mankind, the neutral (pagan-both greek and norse) was that chaos and some monsters are a problem, some are dangerous, others michievious.
« Last Edit: Sept 23, 2012, 1:38am by cooper »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
waysoftheearth
Moderator
*****
member is offline

[avatar]

[ImmersiveInk]



Joined: Sept 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,217
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Karma: 195
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #9 on Sept 23, 2012, 4:02am »

Yes, it is interesting to look back to the ultimate origins of alignment... but perhaps that is another discussion entirely? I guess what I was originally getting at was how alignment (however it came to be) could/should influence play.


Sept 21, 2012, 11:45pm, waysoftheearth wrote:
Why should a player choose one alignment over another... or have an alignment at all?
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
SMKSensei
Level 8 Warlock
****
member is offline

[avatar]

Oe, Chainmail, Delving Deeper, Labyrinth Lord Society, GangBusters, Boot Hill 1e...


[homepage]

Joined: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Karma: 72
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #10 on Sept 23, 2012, 6:52am »

Just for clarification, we've always used alignment. I reward the players that truly play-out the stated alignment and remain consist with it, as well as punish those that don't. (newbies just get reminders at first.)

It's the idea of all creatures of the same alignment having some sort of communication "language" between others of the same alignment that is indiscernable to others of different alignment that always seemed contrived, unrealistic, and in some ways humorous.

If there was a commonality of deity, location, culture, etc.... then it makes sense. IMHO

Cooper, I enjoyed your input on some of the origins here.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

Rolling it old-skool since 1981,

Sean Michael Kelly
http://LinkedIn.com/in/TheLeadershipGeek
GooglePlus: http://gplus.to/TheLdrshipGeek
www.TheLeadershipGeek.com
Twitter: @TheLdrshipGeek
Harrisburg, PA USA
jmccann
Level 6 Magician
***
member is offline





Joined: Oct 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 350
Location: Seattle
Karma: 31
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #11 on Sept 23, 2012, 1:24pm »


Sept 23, 2012, 1:34am, cooper wrote:
Gygax certainly was aware of it, because--as I mentioned, Gygax originally went with a tolkien theme with the fantasy supplement to chainmail. Anderson, moorcock and vance came later.




Do you have any citations to back this up? It is very interesting if true but I would like to see evidence. The connection you describe is very tenuous.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

Look for a new Scifi/Fantasy 'Zine:
http://sorceryandthefarfrontier.com/
cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #12 on Sept 23, 2012, 2:15pm »


Quote:
It's the idea of all creatures of the same alignment having some sort of communication "language" between others of the same alignment that is indiscernable to others of different alignment that always seemed contrived, unrealistic, and in some ways humorous.


If you replace alignment for "culture" and "customs" then it makes a lot more sense. The original alignment system (from tolkien) was culture, at least in it's division of law/neutrality. A lawful anglo-saxon would be a christian convert whereas a neutral anglo-saxon was still a worshipper of norse gods. But what D&D turned into was you'd have two anglo-saxons who both worshiped Odin and one would be lawful and the other would be neutral...So yes, it makes no sense for both of them to have a different alignment.

« Last Edit: Sept 23, 2012, 3:38pm by cooper »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
SMKSensei
Level 8 Warlock
****
member is offline

[avatar]

Oe, Chainmail, Delving Deeper, Labyrinth Lord Society, GangBusters, Boot Hill 1e...


[homepage]

Joined: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Karma: 72
Posted using the ProBoards Mobile AppRe: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #13 on Sept 23, 2012, 2:21pm via the ProBoards Mobile App »

Cooper, I completely agree with the culture idea. That understanding works for me. I just don't necessarily see it working in the DnD mythos as well.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

Rolling it old-skool since 1981,

Sean Michael Kelly
http://LinkedIn.com/in/TheLeadershipGeek
GooglePlus: http://gplus.to/TheLdrshipGeek
www.TheLeadershipGeek.com
Twitter: @TheLdrshipGeek
Harrisburg, PA USA
cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
 Re: What Gives With Alignment?
« Reply #14 on Sept 23, 2012, 3:46pm »

I agree that it might not work in many d&d campaigns. But for a 3 axis alignment system it works really well actually. It allows for "evil" lawful characters. If lawful only means "civilized". Then it doesn't matter what god you worship. All that lawful means is that you come from a civilized land, wear civilized clothes, etc. Neutral simply means you come from the wilds, the northlands, etc. You may be good or evil but your alignment is a marker of your culture. If you are neutral, you wear fur and animal pelts, perhaps you can't read or write.

This allows for a lot of freedom in what can appear to be a limited 3 axis alignment. It allows for grey areas. John Snow is Lawful, he joins the brother of the watch. They are a mix of good men, evil men, uncaring men, etc. But what they have in common is culture. They fight the barbarians in the north (neutral) who also have good and honest men, and evil and cruel men.

alignment as culture is a lot more realistic than alignment as personal philosophy actually. Americans fight the Taliban (lawful vs. neutral lets say). There are good men in the US military, but there are also not good men, but your country/civilization/culture puts you on the same team. What makes zero sense is that all Good characters are on the same side and all evil are on the other. That's certainly not how the world works.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Page 1 of 2 » Jump to page   Go    [Search This Thread] [Share Topic] [Print]

Click Here To Make This Board Ad-Free


This Board Hosted For FREE By ProBoards
Get Your Own Free Message Boards & Free Forums!
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | Notice | FTC Disclosure | Report Abuse | Mobile