Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,214 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
A Play on Monster Damage « Thread Started on Jun 15, 2012, 9:20am »
If you have a later OD&D print, you will no doubt have seen that:
Quote:
All attacks which score hits do 1-6 points damage unless otherwise noted.
M&M (p19)
"unless otherwise noted" applies generally to harmful spells and magic items, and to larger monsters. Paying particular attention to the larger monsters, a reasonably clear pattern is apparent for all those critters whose damage is specifically mentioned...
* Assignment of damage to elementals, giant animals and sea monsters of particular HD is not stated explicitly in the text, but the above seems to be a reasonable interpretation of what is stated.
However, there are as many large monsters for whom no damage particulars are given, and so they are assumed to deal to usual 1-6 points. This can be a bit anti-climactic at times... so what can the over-zealous referee do about it?
It seems that the above is not wildly different to: .1-.4.HD..-->..1d6...damage .6-.7.HD..-->..1d6+2.damage .8-11.HD..-->..2d6...damage 12-13.HD..-->..2d6+2.damage 14-17.HD..-->..3d6...damage 18-19.HD..-->..3d6+2.damage 20+...HD..-->..4d6...damage
With the following three considerations:
(1) Air types (Djinn, Air Elementals) deduct half a die (-2) from damage. (2) Oozes add a full die (because 3 HD gray ooze deals 2d6, and 10 HD black pudding deals 3d6).
Additionally, of Trolls it is stated that:
Quote:
strength they are about equal to an Ogre, but as they use only their talons and fangs for weapons, only one die of damage is scored when they hit an opponent.
M&T (p8).
Hence, as Trolls and Ogres are of equal size/strength we can assume that an Ogre would deal damage equal to a Troll (1d6) with its fangs and talons. With its usual weaponry, the Ogre instead deals 1d6+2 damage. From this we may deduce that weaponry is equivalent approximately half a die of damage (or +2).
Therefore the third consideration is: (3) Humanoid types (Ogres, Giants, etc.) with weaponry add half a die (or +2) to damage.
So, if the referee enjoys tweaking such things and would like to bring the other big monsters "into line" then damage rating could be adjusted to reflect the size/strength of the following monsters:
Assuming size/strength is what matters, then man-sized monsters -- such as leveled NPCs, undead and so on -- do not cause more damage if they have more HD because they are not bigger/stronger.
16 HD elementals would deal 3d6, 12 HD elements 2d6+2, and 8 HD elementals 2d6 (less half a die for air elementals).
That could add a bit of sting to your monster list !
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 660 Karma: 19
Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #1 on Jun 15, 2012, 11:39am »
I examined the HD/damage patterns myself a while back and came to the same basic conclusion about the main monsters, although I didn't notice the slime/ooze pattern.
strength they are about equal to an Ogre, but as they use only their talons and fangs for weapons, only one die of damage is scored when they hit an opponent.
M&T (p8).
Hence, as Trolls and Ogres are of equal size/strength we can assume that an Ogre would deal damage equal to a Troll (1d6) with its fangs and talons. With its usual weaponry, the Ogre instead deals 1d6+2 damage. From this we may deduce that weaponry is equivalent approximately half a die of damage (or +2).
Therefore the third consideration is: (3) Humanoid types (Ogres, Giants, etc.) with weaponry add half a die (or +2) to damage.
This is farther than I would go. I came to a different conclusion: humanoids only get full damage when using weapons designed for their strength. However, I pretty much ignore this for giants 2 or more times human height and just use full damage for everything; I figure the troll/ogre business is because they are close enough to human size that they're treated as being humans, but with a damage boost for ogres using weapons.
I also make a deviation from the rules for humanoids with less than 1 HD: damage done equals HD.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #2 on Jun 15, 2012, 3:00pm »
That's really great Ways. Never tried to figure it out in such a detailed and consistent fashion before. Are there any deviations from the pattern besides the Oozes?
I've been using a "lazy-mans" version paraphrased from something T.Foster wrote IIRC along the lines of:
Small but dangerous - 1-3, points of damage Larger than human sized creatures 1d6 plus a bonus Giant-sized creatures, 2d6 damage the biggest, toughest creatures, like sea monsters, 3 or 4 d6
.... Assuming size/strength is what matters, then man-sized monsters -- such as leveled NPCs, undead and so on -- do not cause more damage if they have more HD because they are not bigger/stronger....
A fairly safe assumption if you go by Arneson:
"HD was determined pretty much on the size of the creature physicelly and, again, some regard for It's mythical properties. For regular animals that were simply made larger, like Beetles, a standard text book provided interesting facts about the critters and all were given HD proportionate to their size"
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
This is farther than I would go. I came to a different conclusion: humanoids only get full damage when using weapons designed for their strength. However, I pretty much ignore this for giants 2 or more times human height and just use full damage for everything; I figure the troll/ogre business is because they are close enough to human size that they're treated as being humans, but with a damage boost for ogres using weapons.
I mentioned it because, to some extent, it "makes the numbers work".
I.e.,
An Ogre is 4+1 HD, so by that measure it "should" do 1d6 damage. But it in fact does 1d6+2.
A Frost Giant is 10+1 HD, so by that measure it "should" do 2d6 damage. But it actually does 2d6+1.
A Fire Giant is 11+3 HD, so by that measure it "should" do 2d6 damage. But it actually does 2d6+2.
A Storm Giant is 15 HD, so by that measure it "should" do 3d6 damage. But in fact, it does 3d6+3.
In these cases, it "works out" nicely.
In the case of Hill Giant and Stone Giants, however, the numbers don't work exactly. These are 8 and 9 HD respectively, and they deal 2d6 damage (as predicted by their number of HD). One might rule this is due to their weaponry being very primitive, or else one might "correct" their damage as above.
Are there any deviations from the pattern besides the Oozes?
Not that I can see, Aldarron.
I have often thought oozes should be handled differently. I am tinkering with an alternate method which rates them by how frequently they deal 1-6 damage, I.e., green slime might cause 1-6 damage every three rounds, grey ooze every two rounds, and black pudding every single round.
I prefer this because with oozes, the challenge is generally to "get it off me!" as quickly as possible. I.e., before it eats through the armour and into you.
Djinn............7+1.HD..2d6-1 Efreet..........10...HD..2d6 ... With the following three considerations:
(1) Air types (Djinn, Air Elementals) deduct half a die (-2) from damage.
Technical question: It looks like Djinn and Efreet are being considered as "Elementals" and this is affecting how you are assigning Hit Dice to them?
I'm not sure where/when (Greyhawk?) the direct association of Djinn, Efreet and what have you as types of elementals was made explicit, but in 3Lbb's at least they are still apparently distinct. Which leads to my "technical" question of assigning HD. Instead of HD being assigned as 8 to Air Elemental, 12 to Water etc. Shouldn't all elementals be:
8 HD staff summoned elemental 12 HD device summoned elemental 16 HD spell conjured elemental
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Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #8 on Jun 16, 2012, 1:35pm »
You're right about the staff/device/spell distinction, although djinn and efreet do have the listed HD and damage. Basically, LBB djinn are "Sky Giants" that fly/polymorph into a whirlwind, while efreet are similar but fire-based.
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Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #9 on Jun 16, 2012, 7:46pm »
I haven't classified Djinn or Efreet as anything, they are simply "as listed" in M&T.
M&T says:
Quote:
DJINN: All Djinn are aerial creatures
and
Quote:
EFREET: These creatuers are similar to the Djinn, but their basis is in fire
(p 19)
Regarding the damage I assigned to Elementals of various sorts in my original post, that was "an interpretation" as I mentioned in my note:
Quote:
* Assignment of damage to elementals, giant animals and sea monsters of particular HD is not stated explicitly in the text, but the above seems to be a reasonable interpretation of what is stated.
I also extrapolated further down in the original post that:
Quote:
16 HD elementals would deal 3d6, 12 HD elements 2d6+2, and 8 HD elementals 2d6 (less half a die for air elementals).
So to expand out elementals fully, they would appear like this:
Air Elemental, 8HD, 1d6+2 Air Elemental, 12HD, 2d6 Air Elemental, 16HD, 2d6+2
Water Elemental, 8HD, 2d6 Water Elemental, 12HD, 2d6+2 Water Elemental, 16HD, 3d6
Fire Elemental, 8HD, 2d6 Fire Elemental, 12HD, 2d6+2 Fire Elemental, 16HD, 3d6
The various limitations and adjustments given in M&T would still apply, of course. I.e., Water Elementals do less damage on dry land, Air Elementals add +1 versus flying targets, and so on.
The "interpretation" part of what is explicitly given in M&T is to assume that the damage figures given are for a particular sized elemental, rather than being applicable across the board. This is unlikely to be what was intended, but makes a certain amount of "sense" in the context of this "play on monster damage".
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 660 Karma: 19
Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #10 on Jun 16, 2012, 8:27pm »
I think it's safer to assume that elementals, as creatures created by enchantment, don't follow the normal patterns. They are more like intelligent environmental hazards that can be dispelled by a given amount of damage. Plus, since the default elemental is actually the 16 HD one, the intention must have been for 16 HD elementals to do the damage listed in the text (1 die for Air/Water, 2 dice for Fire/Earth, bonuses for certain conditions.)
Once you assume that elementals are an exception (and skipping animals, which aren't detailed,) the breakdown seems to be a simple 1 die damage per 4 HD, minimum 1 die, max 4 dice; a couple humanoids (ogres, giants, djinn) get bonus points or penalties to damage, and each head of a hydra is considered a separate 1 HD creature for the purpose of # of attacks and damage.
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,214 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #11 on Jun 16, 2012, 9:51pm »
Yes, it's entirely plausible to come up with alternate plays on the numbers. Yours is one, Talysman, mine is another. Neither is perfect... but my method seem neater to me. No doubt yours seems neater to you
Perhaps it's because I prefer to think of Elementals as naturally occurring creatures that are merely brought forth by magic, rather than being entirely created by it? Perhaps not.
Whatever the case, my main motivation (as I stated in the original post) was to address the "anti-climactic" damage ascribed to some of the top end monsters.
I.e., a "MIGHTY" 16 HD air elemental appears, but then deals a paltry one die damage? Same story for the "MIGHTY" 12 HD dragon, the 15 HD Purple worm, and so on.
I realise that most of these top end monsters have special attacks that can be deadly, but their regular attacks are next to "harmless" against seasoned adventurers, and that IMHO just shouldn't be so.
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 660 Karma: 19
Re: A Play on Monster Damage « Reply #13 on Jun 16, 2012, 11:11pm »
Well, you could use your elemental interpretation with my damage/HD interpretation. The advantage is that mine rises faster: 16 HD earth elemental would do 4 HD damage, 5 HD to creatures on the ground; 30 HD sea monster (assuming no damage cap) does 7 HD damage.
... Once you assume that elementals are an exception (and skipping animals, which aren't detailed,) the breakdown seems to be a simple 1 die damage per 4 HD, minimum 1 die, max 4 dice; a couple humanoids (ogres, giants, djinn) get bonus points or penalties to damage, and each head of a hydra is considered a separate 1 HD creature for the purpose of # of attacks and damage.
Simon's work on this has really clarified what was a pretty fuzzy, fiat kinda thing, and of course there's lots of possible minor variation as both WoTE and Tal discuss.
WoTE is taking a very proper and spcific by the book approach and Tal has a more generalist, rounding approach.
I've been thinking there's a more "by the book" generalist approach than John's suggestion, that I like a lot.
It depends entirely on accepting this assumption. "Some creatures may get specific damage penalties or bonuses as given in their description".
If you can accept that this assumption of the creatures listed in the 3lbb's, then the damage dice breakdown becomes much simpler. The folowing list is exactly the list WoTE gives from the 3lbb's with the modifiers sawed off.
0 to 6(+) = 1d6 7 to 11(+) = 2d6 12 to (15+) = 3d6 16 and greater = 4d6
Now I think this list can be further improved by 2 more assumptions.
The first is to accept John's idea that less than 1HD creatures inflict their HD as damage. That's not so heretical since at one time early on in D&D development HD were damage dice. Plus it simply makes sense.
The second thing is to recognize that D&D does distinguish between 1HD "man-sized" creatures and greater than 1 HD "giant" creatures (like the Ogre), and it would be a mistake to not include that distinction in the list. That also makes particular sense since 4 HD is the mark of the Hero.
So accepting all 3 "assumptions" gives this breakdown:
0 to 1 HD = Damage by HD 1(+) to 4 = 1d6 4 (+) to 6(+) = 1d6+2 7 to 11(+) = 2d6 12 to 15(+) = 3d6 16 and greater = 4d6
Under this scheme, Elementals fit right in and there's no need for exceptions, except (heh) multiheaded creatures (hydra).
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