Re: Which Version? « Reply #1 on Jan 28, 2012, 5:18am »
Which one is better depends on what do you want.
WhiteBox is based on three little brown books of original d&d... No high level stuff, only three classes, four races, very light rules. You can download it free from Matt's LuLu site.
Core is based on 3LBB + Supplement I. There's an optinal thief class, racial abilities are a bit different, ability bonuses have changed, high level stuff, more spells, more monsters, magic items are added. It's a bit more complex, than WhiteBox, but it's still a very light game and it's still free.
Complete is a selection from all 3LBB + Supplement I-III + Strategic Review. Right now the biggest difference between this and core is that Complete has more classes, some minor extra stuff here and there, and this one is not free.
Personally, I prefer Complete, because I like using stuff from all OD&D supplements in my campaigns. If you prefer a more purist approach, then WhiteBox is the game for you, if you want some more stuff but not too much, then Core.
"better" is such a subjective term. It really depends on what you want to do with your game.
The short answer is, any of them will do the job. Your game is what you make it, not what it says in some rule book.
S&W is based on the original rules plus supplementary materials. It is not 100% "authentic" (if that matters), but it is a fine and rich game.
S&W Whitebox is likewise based on the original rules, without supplementary materials, and is likewise a fine and rich game. Some might consider it more "authentic", but still not a true clone of the originals. FYI -- It was written by Marv Breig (who runs this forum) not Matt Finch, though with the latter's approval, and published by John Adams (Brave Halfling Press). Unfortunately there was a "falling out" of some sort between the three parties that more-or-less saw the end of it (I don't know, or care to know, the exact details).
I don't know much about the Frog Gods Game's version.
But my advice would be just get your hands on any of them and get your game going. Tweak the rules as desired as you go along, that's all part of the fun
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 270 Location: Fayetteville, GA Karma: 5
Re: Which Version? « Reply #3 on Jan 28, 2012, 5:49am »
The pdfs of both Core and WhiteBox are free, so you can see for yourself. (you can grab them from the S&W site or from Lulu.)
Core is essentially the 3LBBs + some stuff from Greyhawk. So, you have the big four classes, variable weapon damage and character class hit dice, monsters with multiple attacks, spells that weren't in the LBBs (like Magic Missle), Cleric spells up to spell level 7, magic-user spells up to spell level 9, attribute bonuses aren't uniform (in previous printings they were all more or less +1 for above average and -1 for below average attributes, now it follows OD&D a bit more closely) and a dozen or more little things sprinkled throughout (for example the fighting man having a Parrying class ability).
WhiteBox is more or less just the 3LBBs. Fighting Man, Magic-user and Cleric classes only. d6 for hit dice and for weapon damage (though a couple of weapons do 1d6+1 or 1d6-1). Most monsters have only one attack (and that attack does 1d6 damage). Cleric spells up to level 5 and magic-user spells to level 6. Movement is more simplified than in Core (not to say that in Core it's at all complicated or anything). No attribute bonuses, but there is an optional rule for the universal attribute bonus I mentioned above that used to be standard for both Core and WB.
Complete contains more stuff from further supplements and issues of Strategic Review. Thus, it's like an AD&D lite. Compared to Core (since Core's newest printing anyway), it's like Core ++. Not saying that in either a good or bad way. It's just Core plus more. Ranger, Druid, Paladin, Assassin. More detail on rules that already exist in Core (for example, Core has rough guidelines or suggestions for dual-class and multiclass characters, but Complete gives more detailed rules for such) More spells and general adventuring rules and travel and so on and so forth.
Though I love WB the best, Core gets best in show from me. The new WB printing is the best ever, but it's now been officially 'left to the fans' and to remain evergreen...which is nice, but it still has some errata and there are weird issues with the looks of some of the tables and the cover. Doesn't effect the awesomeness of the WB rules though of course. Complete has even worse printing issues. The art is very pixilated and most has a washed-out look to it. You can't just grab it off of Lulu and all the hardbacks from FFG are sold out. Also the pdf isn't free. Core, by contrast to both, is more solidly put together, looks beautiful, has a free pdf and you can order a print right from Lulu.
Having said that, I certainly couldn't help anyone decide because all three of them are awesome.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,552 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: Which Version? « Reply #4 on Jan 28, 2012, 12:17pm »
I'm going to go against the flow here for just a moment. Don't misunderstand, Matt's S&W is a fine product and you'll do just fine if that is the way you go.
Still, I'd like to give mention to Proctor's "Labyrinth Lord" and the (cough-cough) original edition supplement to LL: "Original Edition Characters". The OEC makes for an OD&D gaming experience that is a hard combination to beat!
I'm going to go against the flow here for just a moment. Don't misunderstand, Matt's S&W is a fine product and you'll do just fine if that is the way you go.
Still, I'd like to give mention to Proctor's "Labyrinth Lord" and the (cough-cough) original edition supplement to LL: "Original Edition Characters". The OEC makes for an OD&D gaming experience that is a hard combination to beat!
Re: Which Version? « Reply #6 on Jan 28, 2012, 2:35pm »
I don't really like LL+OEC. I have everything I need for an OD&D-based game in a single book with S&W. On the other hand, I would choose LL+AEC for an "AD&D-light" campaign anytime over OSRIC.
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 350 Location: Seattle Karma: 31
Re: Which Version? « Reply #7 on Jan 28, 2012, 2:48pm »
I don't like AAC and single saving throw. The many suggested house rules in sidebars also bug me. Don't suggest my house-rules for me thanks!
These are not huge issues. In addition to this though, the fact that LL seems to be reliably in print with a core book and some options, while S&W is split across multiple confusing releases with some kind of kerfuffle over authorship (which I can't figure out) in the recent past is enough to sway me toward LL. I don't have time to read S&W white box, core rules and whatever else there is to figure out how to play S&W or which version I want.
[S&W Whitebox is likewise based on the original rules, without supplementary materials, and is likewise a fine and rich game. Some might consider it more "authentic", but still not a true clone of the originals. FYI -- It was written by Marv Breig (who runs this forum) not Matt Finch, though with the latter's approval, and published by John Adams (Brave Halfling Press).
Whether it is a more "authentic" game or not I'll leave for others to judge. I enjoyed writing the WB in the style in which I play, which is to say very "loose" and with options instead of hard-and-fast rules. I've since moved on and no longer run my WB, nor have I really kept up on what Matt has done with it over the past year or so. The free downloads are worth a look, however, and the price is right.
Others have mentioned LL (and the OEC supplement) and I'll say that I agree that this is a wonderful rules set as well for those looking for something OD&D-like but better organized. The OEC really captures the OD&D style of play.
there was a "falling out" of some sort between the three parties that more-or-less saw the end of it (I don't know, or care to know, the exact details).
An unfortunate misunderstanding that really derailed the WB product line as it was realy starting to take off. On the other hand those events caused John to decide to support the creation of Delving Deeper, so hopefully some good came out of it.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Re: Which Version? « Reply #11 on Jan 29, 2012, 4:11pm »
"I don't like AAC and single saving throw. The many suggested house rules in sidebars also bug me. Don't suggest my house-rules for me thanks!"
AAC is completely optional, and multiple saving throws are included since S&W Complete in every version. Those advices (or suggestions) are useful for some people - especielly those, who are new to old-school gaming. I don't understand why did you find them so offensive.
AAC is completely optional, and multiple saving throws are included since S&W Complete in every version. Those advices (or suggestions) are useful for some people - especielly those, who are new to old-school gaming. I don't understand why did you find them so offensive.
They rub me the wrong way but they're not so bad. The other things I mentioned were more important in forming my preference for S&W over LL.
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Re: Which Version? « Reply #13 on Jan 29, 2012, 9:24pm »
As noted above, the WB and Core versions are available for free download. Get both, read through and decide just what amount of rules you are more comfortable with.
For me, when I play S&W, I like WB. If I want more rules, I go to LL. Personally, I found Complete too heavy for my taste.
Re: Which Version? « Reply #14 on Jan 30, 2012, 3:58pm »
I have several different printings of Core and White Box, but I haven't seen Complete.
For Core, I like the 3rd printing more than the current (4th) printing. The layout is more crisp and clear, and it has d6 based hit dice which I like. Some things were added to the 4th to bring it closer to the original rules, but I like the 3rd printing's interpretation more. If I wanted to play the original 0e, I think I would do just that. The art is better in the 4th printing, though.
For White Box, I like the Brave Halfling (3rd printing) version's layout the best.
For an actual game I'd prefer the White Box. I think it might be my favorite set of D&D rules out there right there (excluding nostalgic and retro-fetishist urges). The only thing it is lacking is campaign rules (dungeon, wilderness, baronies, etc) and flavor, but I tend to use the B/X '81 set for dungeon stocking and wilderness rules anyways. I like how the monster and spell entries are super simple, and the rules are so simple that you can change anything you want without making the system crash.
Send me a PM and I can send you the S&WC 3rd printing BH SW:WB Free Edition .pdf if you want.
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