Poll Question: What should be done with them in the OE rules edit?
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Total Votes: 24 Total Voters: 24
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Topic: [S&W WB] Spells (Read 1,019 times)
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,673 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
[S&W WB] Spells « Thread Started on Jun 15, 2008, 9:41am »
I've been looking at Matt's S&W material and looking for cuts to trim it down to my Original Edition rules set.
In true OE spirit, I have determined that magic-user spells above level 6 need to go. Ditto for cleric spells above level 5. This is in keeping, I think, with the mission of the project.
However, I'm a little torn about the spells left over. What we have is a mix of M&M and GH spells at the moment. One part of me says trim 'em all back to the M&M spells only.
Another part says "yeah, but that kills magic missile and other useful spells." (Okay, so that's my wife talking. She only plays MU's and hates to be limited in her spell options.)
I'd be interested in hearing any feedback on the issue. It may be "my" edit, but hopefully it's "our" rules when they're done.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 393 Location: Los Angeles, CA Karma: 10
Re: [S&W OE] Spells « Reply #1 on Jun 15, 2008, 9:58am »
M&M spells and GH spells marked with asterisk or optional additional spells or the like, something that clearly delineates them. If that's a pain, M&M only.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 293 Karma: 21
Re: [S&W OE] Spells « Reply #2 on Jun 15, 2008, 10:04am »
As a legal matter, don't use the exact spell list from M&M; you could add only one or two GH spells, or use some with asterisks to indicate that they're optional, but don't duplicate the exact spell lists with no change whatsoever.
I'd be interested in hearing any feedback on the issue. It may be "my" edit, but hopefully it's "our" rules when they're done.
At least some of the spells from GH would be nice as they round out the spell lists, especially for clerics. Perhaps some spells could be listed as DMO. DM's Option as to whether they are available to all or only to NPCs unless the PCs research them (or capture an NPC's spell book with one or more of the DMO spells included)?
As a legal matter, don't use the exact spell list from M&M; you could add only one or two GH spells, or use some with asterisks to indicate that they're optional, but don't duplicate the exact spell lists with no change whatsoever.
Well, Matt, I hope the list is legal 'cause I'm working from your rough draft that you sent me.
At this point I haven't even thought about adding spells; I'm still trimming stuff out!
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
As a legal matter, don't use the exact spell list from M&M; you could add only one or two GH spells, or use some with asterisks to indicate that they're optional, but don't duplicate the exact spell lists with no change whatsoever.
Well, Matt, I hope the list is legal 'cause I'm working from your rough draft that you sent me.
At this point I haven't even thought about adding spells; I'm still trimming stuff out!
The list as it stands is legal; however, if it's trimmed to exactly and only the spells listed in M&M, I'd have a concern about that. Keeping in a spell or two from GH, or adding in only level 6 cleric spells, or creating a single brand new spell ... something has to be different and represent an artistic/gaming choice independent of "copying" what's in M&M. What's being done here, from the legal standpoint, is using the SRD to re-create the numerical rules of 0e. Spell lists are a grey area - numerical or not. Insofar as they define a character's capabilities, they are numerical. Insofar as they represent a flavorful list of options, they may be within copyright parameters. If the list is different, even fairly slightly, the grey area shifts away from the flavorful list of options. The influence of the SRD on this is involved as well, blah, blah, blah.
Sorry to interject the legal side into it, but the legal side is an important portion of the creation of a retro-clone. Something has to be involved beyond trimming the list down to exactly the spells from M&M.
Finished being boring, now.
PS - hey, you can't call your version 0e, they're BOTH 0e! Mine's just got GH stuff in it as well as WB!
Sorry to interject the legal side into it, but the legal side is an important portion of the creation of a retro-clone. Something has to be involved beyond trimming the list down to exactly the spells from M&M.
No, this is what I need because I don't quite get the OGL thing yet. I don't want to put a lot of work into the project only to find out that it can't be released!
EDIT: So, I'm assuming that if I keep the entire list of all spells from Arcane levels 1-6 and Divine levels 1-5 that would be "different" enough so I would be on solid ground? (Or at least use M&M plus a few extras.)
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 942 Karma: 27
Re: [S&W OE] Spells « Reply #10 on Jun 16, 2008, 1:32am »
FWIW (probably nothing, as it's "house rules"), here's one thing I've done differently:
On the 2nd level list, clerics add Silence 15' Radius (from Greyhawk) Resist Heat or Cold (as Potion of Fire Resistance on subject touched)
On the 3rd level list, they add Speak With Dead (from Greyhawk) Dispell Magic (as the magic-user spell)
Regarding MUs, one might bring in some spells from Holmes (as did the later Basic editions) ... unless that would cramp the style of a forthcoming Holmes "retro-clone."
EDIT: So, I'm assuming that if I keep the entire list of all spells from Arcane levels 1-6 and Divine levels 1-5 that would be "different" enough so I would be on solid ground? (Or at least use M&M plus a few extras.)
If you copied those lists from the d20srd then you would be on solid ground. You could note what edition each spell appeared which would allow people wanting to play with the older list a reference to work off of.
EDIT: So, I'm assuming that if I keep the entire list of all spells from Arcane levels 1-6 and Divine levels 1-5 that would be "different" enough so I would be on solid ground? (Or at least use M&M plus a few extras.)
Yes. You will have applied independent "artistic/design" decisions to modify materials from the SRD into something that feels like, but isn't, the pattern of artistic/design decisions made in creating the original Gygax spell lists. When operating with material that isn't numerical or purely game-system, there must be independent creative input, and it must be created from material in the SRD (which can be modified to whatever you want). You cannot "derive" material from non-numerical, non-system material in the original unless that material is (a) contained in the SRD in some form and (b) you have made independent creative decisions. I am, btw, using a layman's definition of "derive," and I suggest that Finarvyn not use that word at all in discussions about the project. The legal meaning of that word is synonymous with "illegally derived." Just make sure you don't say you "derived" anything, even though it's innocuous in the layman's meaning.
EDIT: um, given how complex it is, best not to bother discussing it on the boards - I'll handle it with Fin as issues arise.
KELT-SET =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Bishop of Blackmoor Found B/X D&D in the 1980's =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - Gary Gygax
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 432 Location: Hollywood, California, USA Karma: 40
Re: [S&W WB] Spells « Reply #14 on Jun 18, 2008, 7:35pm »
Add the extra 2nd & 3rd level cleric spells from Supp I, kick the extra MU spells to the curb (for the most part -- maybe add a few, but to me it just won't be "white box" if magic missile is on the list!)
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