Goblin is nothing more than an Orc in the Tolkien world of Middle Earth. The term Goblin is used extensively in The Hobbit and the term Orc is used extensively in The Lord of the Rings. DnD has them separate by type. Not good or bad. Just different.
Actually, in "The Hobbit," at one point talking about goblins Tolkien says "the really big ones, the Orcs of the mountains...."
So there is at least some implication that Orcs are bigger, meaner goblins.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Joined: Feb 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 41 Location: wales Karma: 2
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #16 on Aug 10, 2012, 5:17am »
I was editing my greyhawk re write and noticed tucked away at the back that the Balrog has erratta to be HD9
As I understand orcs in ME, they are basically all the same but smaller ones are referred to as Goblins, man sized ones are Orcs and new nasty LOTR half breeds are Urak Hai (Saruman didnt make em...that was Sauron). I think of it as being like variants in the human race, all the same but also different at the same time.
So what do folks think the Olog Hai and Trolls are as DnD trolls are totally different rubbery regenerating things (more Beowulf/grendal style)
« Last Edit: Aug 10, 2012, 5:18am by trebormills »
I was editing my greyhawk re write and noticed tucked away at the back that the Balrog has erratta to be HD9
As I understand orcs in ME, they are basically all the same but smaller ones are referred to as Goblins, man sized ones are Orcs and new nasty LOTR half breeds are Urak Hai (Saruman didnt make em...that was Sauron). I think of it as being like variants in the human race, all the same but also different at the same time.
So what do folks think the Olog Hai and Trolls are as DnD trolls are totally different rubbery regenerating things (more Beowulf/grendal style)
1. Sauron had orcs. Sauruman cross-bred his orcs with hillmen to create Uruk Hai (which were bigger and tougher and more disciplined...just like the hobgoblin). 2. I've never heard of Olog Hai, but it seems pretty clear that from the "Hai" that they are giant orcs. Orcs are big goblins in Tolkien, so giant orcs could be called giant goblins. In OD&D there is a giant goblin: the bugbear. 3. Trolls in Tolkien are ogres in D&D. 4. We now have a simple progression of evil humanoids: Tolkien ==> goblin, orc, Uruk Hai, Olog Hai, troll OD&D ==> goblin, orc, hobgoblin, bugbear, ogre 5. Additionally, OD&D introduces kobolds and says "treat these monsters as if they were goblins except that they will take from 1 - 3 hits." So we have one creature type running the scale from 1/2 HD to 4+1 HD. If desired one could also decide that they all speak different dialects of the same language, so an orc would speak the orcish dialect of goblinoid while a "troll" would speak the ogre dialect of goblinoid. Thus a referee could give characters a chance of understanding bugbears if they speak goblin, yet keep them in the dark if he wants as there are enough differences in the languages that a character could need to know both to understand everything. Like Louisiana Creole vs Haitian Creole vs French, or Jamaican Patois vs Cockney English vs (American) Jive vs whatever-the-hell Snoop Dogg thinks is language.
Sauron made the first Uraks, but Saruman later bred his own Uraks which were superior, being taller yet and unperturbed by sunlight.
Do you have explicit citations to this? I'm pretty sure there's nothing of the sort in LotR itself.
Sauron has bred the Uruk-hai orcs, yes. Much later (as of War of the Ring), Saruman has at least two battalions of the same Uruks, but nothing suggests that he has bred them himself or that they were superior to Sauron's.
Quote:
2. I've never heard of Olog Hai, but it seems pretty clear that from the "Hai" that they are giant orcs. Orcs are big goblins in Tolkien, so giant orcs could be called giant goblins. In OD&D there is a giant goblin: the bugbear.
Wrong. Olog-hai are Sauron's "improved" trolls. They're trolls who are bigger, stronger, smarter and don't turn to stone from sunlight.
Do you have explicit citations to this? I'm pretty sure there's nothing of the sort in LotR itself.
Sauron has bred the Uruk-hai orcs, yes. Much later (as of War of the Ring), Saruman has at least two battalions of the same Uruks, but nothing suggests that he has bred them himself or that they were superior to Sauron's.
Joined: Apr 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 191 Karma: 10
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #21 on Aug 21, 2012, 11:39am »
From my Tolkien Companion I looked up Goblin, Orc and Uruk-Hai in that order. Essentially order of appearance.
The goblin was the most amusing. To paraphrase, it is a translation of the Elven word Urch (Pl Yrch). Then it goes on to say, "See Orc"
Under Orc, it says that Orcs are Orcs though there are some physiological differences by region, mainly in color and sometimes size. Uruk is the black speech for Orc. Uruk-Hai are nothing more than improved Orcs. Physiologically the same though stronger and smarter. They can withstand sunlight where true Orcs cannot.
The entry under Uruk-Hai goes on to reiterate that which was already stated under Orcs about Uruk-Hai.
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,338 Location: Chicago, IL Karma: 51
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #22 on Aug 21, 2012, 1:02pm »
Yes, it’s true that, technically, an Orc is an Orc is an Orc. However, it’s clear that there are “breeds,” basically due to the race’s natural tendency to degenerate, combined with multiple interbreeding experiments done by Sauron over the ages, and later by Saruman.
The Hobbit mentions “goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs” in one passage (see also Gronan’s quote, above). In The Two Towers, of course there’s the chapter where it makes quite plain the great differences between three different groups (from Moria, Mordor, and Isengard), though here it refers to them all as Orcs. These are two different ways of addressing the same subject. And in a game, it’s desirable to give them all distinct nomenclature (because you’re going to have to stat them differently) rather than explain every time that you’re talking about orcs of such-and-such a breed.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Joined: Apr 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 191 Karma: 10
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #23 on Aug 22, 2012, 4:01pm »
Like I said, "goblins" are a translation of man. Those commonly seen by men of the west come from the Misty Mountains. They are different in name only. That is my point. Not much different than us saying Europeans or Africans or Asians. All human with their own qualities.
In name — and in color, and in size, and in strength, and in intelligence, and in resistance to sunlight. All things you mentioned in your previous post.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #25 on Aug 22, 2012, 5:28pm »
I vaguely remember reading an interview with Christopher Tolkien about the elf lord Glorfindel. In the Silmarillion Glorfindel was an elf of Gondolin, who fell to his death in Cirith Thoronath in combat with a Balrog after the escape from the sack of the city. An elf lord named Glorfindel meets Strider and the hobbits after the attack on Amon Sul (Weathertop) and sends Frodo fleeing on his horse to the ford of Bruinen. Christopher said this was the same elf lord of Gondolin who had been sent back to Middle Earth because his father never used the same name for two people.
I thought this was interesting because I believe he was the only elf reincarnated and allowed to interact again in the affairs of Middle Earth. In my old "A Guide to Middle Earth" its states that Glorfindel also led the elvish host that routed the forces of Angmar at the battle of Fornost in TA 1975.
My old guide on the Olog-hai says this means the troll-people and that they were a race of trolls of southern Mirkwood and northern Mordor, bred by Sauron toward the end of the Third Age. Hmm I wonder if they were bred in the pits of Dol Guldur?
D&D trolls are from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts & Three Lions which is a great novel if you haven't read it.
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,338 Location: Chicago, IL Karma: 51
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #26 on Aug 22, 2012, 11:27pm »
There’s a really fascinating chapter on Glorfindel in The Peoples of Middle-earth, pp. 377-91. It’s actually one of the last things that Tolkien ever wrote. The one thing I will point out is that it’s not quite true that Tolkien never re-used names — for example, “Galdor is a name of…a more simple and usual form and might be repeated” (p. 387) —, but that Glorfindel is “so striking a name” that “repetition…though possible, would not be credible” (p. 380).
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Re: On the Balrog « Reply #27 on Aug 23, 2012, 5:58am »
I'll have to check that out, I don't believe I have read The Peoples of Middle Earth. I still have The Children of Hurin unread on my bookself. I think I saw while looking for other things more on your Balrog in some issue of SpaceGamer or WhiteDwarf.
There’s a really fascinating chapter on Glorfindel in The Peoples of Middle-earth, pp. 377-91. It’s actually one of the last things that Tolkien ever wrote. The one thing I will point out is that it’s not quite true that Tolkien never re-used names — for example, “Galdor is a name of…a more simple and usual form and might be repeated” (p. 387) —, but that Glorfindel is “so striking a name” that “repetition…though possible, would not be credible” (p. 380).
There's a Denethor in the published Silmarillion who is an elf in the First Age, so Tolkien clearly reused names every now and then.
As for the discrepancies, the Silmarillion was a moving target for Tolkien's entire life, he never actually settled on anything final, just a succession of revisions according to his latest ideas. Lord of the Rings in this sense was an inconvenience, in that it set a lot of details relatively firmly. It's possible that Glorfindel's death at one point in the revisions was meant to be changed at another; Christopher Tolkien had to stitch the published Silmarillion together from a melange of stories written over more than a half-century.
In name — and in color, and in size, and in strength, and in intelligence, and in resistance to sunlight. All things you mentioned in your previous post.
Color and size refers to all sub types of Uruks while resistance to sunlight and better intelligence refers to Uruk-Hai. The point I am trying to make, before it gets lost, is that GOBLINS and Orcs (or YRCH or URUKS) are the same creature. Uruk-Hai are improved Uruks as Ooolog-Hai are improved Trolls.
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
Logged
![[avatar]](http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/waysoftheearth/Ways_100x100.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://images.proboards.com/avatars/linux.gif "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
![[avatar]](http://mux.net/~ulmo/ThorinII.jpg "[avatar]")
![[icq]](http://images.proboards.com/icq.gif "[icq]")
![[avatar]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Arthur-Pyle_Sir_Gawaine_the_Son_of_Lot%2C_King_of_Orkney.JPG/340px-Arthur-Pyle_Sir_Gawaine_the_Son_of_Lot%2C_King_of_Orkney.JPG "[avatar]")