Original D&D Discussion
« dragons and 1st-level characters »

Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
May 25, 2013, 10:00am

[Home] [New Topics] [Help] [Search] [Login] [Register]



Original D&D Discussion :: Dungeons & Dragons (1971-1978) :: Monsters & Treasure (1974) :: dragons and 1st-level characters
Page 1 of 2 » Jump to page   Go    [Search This Thread] [Share Topic] [Print]
AuthorTopic: dragons and 1st-level characters (Read 1,231 times)
geoffrey
Level 9 Sorcerer
*****
member is online

[avatar]

Master of Carcosa



Joined: Oct 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,558
Karma: 87
dragons and 1st-level characters
« Thread Started on Sept 29, 2011, 8:03pm »
One of the things I like better about 1974 D&D than any later iterations are the dragons. Starting in early 1975 with the GREYHAWK supplement, dragons got 3 melee attacks that cause quite a bit of damage.

But in the 1974 rules, a dragon (any dragon) does as much damage per round as does a kobold or a magic-user with a dagger: 1-6 points.

So consider a white dragon with 5 hit points. Where's the proper place to put it? On the 1st level of the dungeon. There is no reason in the world that 1st-level PCs shouldn't encounter dragons.

Sure, this little white dragon has an AC of 2. But so does the 1st-level fighting-man with plate and shield. Sure, the dragon can attack at range. But so can the fighting-men with bows. And the dragon might be asleep!

The dragon's bite does 1-6 points of damage (just like the PCs' weapons), and its breath does 5 points (or 2 or 3 points if saved against). That's not a deal-breaker.

So dragons in the 1974 rules, more so than any other version, are suitable opponents for all levels of PCs.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Click here for a review of Isle of the Unknown, a Wilderlands-style hex-crawl (only more so).
Ynas Midgard
Level 4 Theurgist
**
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 147
Location: Hungary
Karma: 5
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #1 on Sept 29, 2011, 8:22pm »
That is a most appealing thing in those rules.
I hate when I cannot throw my favourite monsters on the PCs because that would be "unfair"...
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
"We don't explore characters; we explore dungeons."
http://ynasmidgard.blogspot.com/
spacemonkeydm
Level 3 Conjurer
**
member is offline





Joined: Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 50
Karma: 2
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #2 on Sept 30, 2011, 11:18am »
I never thought about it, being new and all. I think my players need to run into a baby dragon now. Nice baby fire breathing dragon, just attacked it first caravan and bullied some kobolds into worshiping it.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
our gaming group's blog
http://nat-ones.blogspot.com/
SMKSensei
Level 8 Warlock
****
member is offline

[avatar]

Oe, Chainmail, Delving Deeper, Labyrinth Lord Society, GangBusters, Boot Hill 1e...


[homepage]

Joined: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 881
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Karma: 72
Posted using the ProBoards Mobile AppRe: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #3 on Sept 30, 2011, 11:50am via the ProBoards Mobile App »
you know, the crazy thing is that when I was young and first played b/x-1e back in the earlies 80's..... I NEVER had the opportunity to fight a dragon. Even funnier, then after taknig over as the default DM/GM in nearly every game.... dragons are always rarely encountered and never have I had the opporunity to run one! I'm going to need to fix this ASAP....
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Rolling it old-skool since 1981,

Sean Michael Kelly
http://LinkedIn.com/in/TheLeadershipGeek
GooglePlus: http://gplus.to/TheLdrshipGeek
www.TheLeadershipGeek.com
Twitter: @TheLdrshipGeek
Harrisburg, PA USA
coffee
Level 10 Necromancer
*****
member is offline

[avatar]

Education is fun!


[homepage]

Joined: Jul 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,503
Karma: 57
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #4 on Sept 30, 2011, 2:17pm »
This is awesome! Have an exalt for this.


One thing, though: The first level fighting-man in plate and shield still needs a 17 to hit the dragon's AC 2. But the dragon only needs a 12 to hit the fighting-man.

Even with only 1 pip per die, the dragon still hits as a 5 hit dice monster.

But that's not a deal breaker, because the fighting-man has friends with him. Odds are, the dragon is alone. It should be a pretty good fight.

And just think of the bragging rights, when they bring the head back to town!


I'm definitely putting a dragon on the first level of my next dungeon.
« Last Edit: Sept 30, 2011, 2:17pm by coffee »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Dieter the Deathless, anger-fueled fighting machine.
cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #5 on Sept 30, 2011, 3:05pm »
Dragons in the 1974 rules had multiple attacks per round, just not with the alternate combat system ;)

Even the smallest 5hd white could roll 5 attacks per round, there is a reason they don't show up on the wandering monster chart for 1st level pc's.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
foxroe
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
***
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 294
Location: Miskatonic U
Karma: 9
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #6 on Sept 30, 2011, 7:11pm »
Something else that I find interesting about 0ed dragons (considering your point, Geoffrey) is their treatment in Vol.III. If you look at the Monster Determination matrix on pgs.10-11, dragons don't begin to show up until the third dungeon level. On the Wilderness tables (pg.18) they have a 1 in 6* (and sometimes better) chance of showing up during anything but a city encounter.

So in both of these cases, do you determine HD/age randomly, or do you scale the dragon according to the party, or do you base it on “dungeon level”?

Great thread idea, BTW! This is a subject worthy of discussing to death. ;)

*Not considering lost vs. encounter chances, BTW.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
-Fox

"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Morandir
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
***
member is offline

[avatar]

Apostate



Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Misery
Karma: 12
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #7 on Sept 30, 2011, 7:42pm »
This happened once during a game; the PCs (all 2nd or 3rd level, IIRC) were traveling from one town to another, and randomly encountered a white dragon. I rolled randomly for age category - I can't remember now what the result was - and for its reaction to the PCs. I got a neutral reaction, not that it mattered. The instant it swooped over the PCs (to scare them for fun), the Elf hit it with her wand of paralysis. Of course it failed its save, and found itself wrapped in layers of rope.

It first promised to lead them to its hoard if they freed it and (I still can't believe they did this) they agreed, and freed it. It of course simply flew away. Another attempt with the paralysis wand failed, after which it was out of range.

So yeah, dragon encounters can happen any time and don't always have to result in combat. This to me is one of the great things about the combination of random encounter and reaction tables - you never know what's going to happen!
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Archaeology is nothing like Indiana Jones. I've never once gotten to punch a Nazi!
foxroe
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
***
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 294
Location: Miskatonic U
Karma: 9
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #8 on Sept 30, 2011, 9:33pm »
Very cool, Morandir! While some would say that the actions of the party were bordering on foolhardy, I like the way you handled it as DM. Dragons aren't dumb party-fodder.

I imagine that dragon is slowly plotting its revenge. ;)
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
-Fox

"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
Morandir
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
***
member is offline

[avatar]

Apostate



Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 299
Location: Misery
Karma: 12
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #9 on Oct 1, 2011, 2:53pm »
Oh, it would be if we were still playing...unfortunately we're not. The upside is I have time to prepare my megadungeon/sandbox game for later, which is coming along nicely!
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Archaeology is nothing like Indiana Jones. I've never once gotten to punch a Nazi!
jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
***
member is offline





Joined: Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 278
Karma: 18
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #10 on Oct 1, 2011, 3:58pm »
Put that 5HD dragon agaisnt 5 first level fighters in plate and shield and the fighters win in two rounds with some loses.

The 5 fighters are each likely to inflict 0.7 pts of damage a round agaisnt the dragon for a likely 3.5 points of damage vs the Dragon.

The 5HD dragon with it's 5 attacks is likely to inflict 7.88 pts of damage around vs the fighters, assuming all these blows strike a single fighter that's 1 dead fighter a round.

The are likely to win with 2 loses vs the dragon. If they win initiative.
« Last Edit: Oct 1, 2011, 4:01pm by jjarvis »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
my blog- http://aeonsnaugauries.blogspot.com/
cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #11 on Oct 1, 2011, 4:41pm »
In a 10' hallway, the Dragons breath should hit all the fighters each round. Average 1st level fighters hitpoints is 4.5 (1+1 hd). Only 2 or 3 fighters can fight in the hall, dragon kills all 5 fighters in 2 rounds regardless of saves, fighters take longer at least 3 rounds.

Their best bet is a charge with spears in formation (3 abreast) doing doible dame in the first round, or two rows of archers 3+2. Unfortunately, only heroes were meant to fight dragons so the +1 weapon requirement was formulated and none of the 1st level fighters stand a chance.
« Last Edit: Oct 1, 2011, 4:47pm by cooper »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
geoffrey
Level 9 Sorcerer
*****
member is online

[avatar]

Master of Carcosa



Joined: Oct 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,558
Karma: 87
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #12 on Oct 1, 2011, 6:48pm »
Dragons will bite instead of breathe on a roll of 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 on 2d6. :)
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Click here for a review of Isle of the Unknown, a Wilderlands-style hex-crawl (only more so).
foxroe
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
***
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 294
Location: Miskatonic U
Karma: 9
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #13 on Oct 1, 2011, 8:07pm »
However, OD&D dragons are not like in later editions. If a dragon is encountered randomly, HD/age is normally determined randomly. PC's may face a tiny, relatively harmless "newt", or they may stumble upon a huge elder on the hunt for large sources of meat and treasure. Smart PC's assume the worst case and avoid the dragon, biding their time and planning their foray, if they feel they should assault it. Foolish PC's think that the DM has designed a dragon encounter tailored to their needs.

After all, the game is called "Dungeons and DRAGONS", not "Dungeons and Easy-XP". Just sayin'. ;)
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
-Fox

"Those who swallow the camel of the entire concept, then strain at gnats of a particular monster or situation seem to be be losing much of the basis for playing. However, that sort of thing happens as one becomes familiar with the fanciful and begins to qualify the experience by comparison to reality." - EGG
cooper
Level 7 Enchanter
****
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 561
Karma: 17
Re: dragons and 1st-level characters
« Reply #14 on Oct 3, 2011, 3:46pm »
I'll also point out that even the smallest white dragon is worth 2,500-5,000gp on the open market if subdued.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
Page 1 of 2 » Jump to page   Go    [Search This Thread] [Share Topic] [Print]

Click Here To Make This Board Ad-Free


This Board Hosted For FREE By ProBoards
Get Your Own Free Message Boards & Free Forums!
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | Notice | FTC Disclosure | Report Abuse | Mobile