Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 1,217 Location: Melbourne, Australia Karma: 195
How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Thread Started on Oct 16, 2009, 6:07am »
I can't find it in my LBBs right now, but page 9 of Holmes states that 300 gold pieces weigh 30 pounds, and page 102 of the AD&D PHB states that 10 gold pieces weigh one pound. Okay, that sounds kinda heavy, but how big are they?
I have been wondering this for years, so I finally got around to some digging. On wikipedia I learned that a like amount of copper or silver weighs roughly the same, being 8.9 and 10.5 times as dense as water respectively. The same amount of gold, however, is almost exactly twice as heavy as either, being 19.3 times as dense as water.
So assuming that copper, silver and gold coins all weigh 1/10th of a pound, gold pieces are very probably smaller and/or thinner than silver and copper pieces. That's all very well, but how BIG are they??
I live in Australia, where the coins are made of an alloy called Cupronickel, which is three parts copper to one part nickel, and turns out to be 8.9 times as dense as water. So these coins are of a comparable density to D&D copper and silver pieces. (I suspect many coins of the modern World are of a similar composition, but I haven't checked.)
So all I needed next was a Cupronickel coin that weighed 1/10th of a pound, and I'd have myself a near-authentic sized D&D coin.
In Australia we happen to have a giant-sized 50 cent piece. It is 32mm (1.3") across, 3mm (0.1") thick, and weighs 16 grams (0.6oz). But some quick calculations reveal that even these monstrous coins weigh only 1/28th of a pound each!
In other words, each D&D copper or silver piece is three times the size of a modern Australian 50 cent piece!! And therefore each D&D gold-piece is 1.5 times the size of a modern Australian 50 cent piece.
On the basis of this, I decided that for any given a sack-full of random D&D coins, each coin could (very approximately) be said to be twice the size of my (formerly "giant") 50 cent piece.
Armed with this information, I set about collecting a pile of 50 cent pieces. Six months later I finally have enough to simulate a decent little hoard of D&D coins. So, with common celotape I stuck a bunch of 50 cent pieces together in pairs -- each pair being a reasonable representation of a single D&D sized coin. As a result I now have a pile of "realistically sized" D&D-sized coins to clink together, and to lug about at my game sessions. I have linked to a few pictures below for your amusement.
It is interesting to note that;
They are really, REALLY big! 10 coins is a comfortable handful. 20 coins is a full handful.
This picture shows a stack of 10 "simulated pieces" or "sp", (left pile) next to a US 1 cent piece and a US 5 cent piece (center pile), and a stack of 10 AU 5 cent pieces (right pile).
This picture shows the same US and AU coins overshadowed by 20"sp" in two stacks of 10.
This picture shows the same US and AU coins surrounded by 60"sp" in six stack of 10.
This picture shows what a handful a handful of 20"sp" really is.
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #1 on Oct 16, 2009, 7:33am »
That's really cool!
One question.. you were talking in the text that you were simulating "gp" with 2 coins - and in the pictures you were referring to them as "sp"? Was that deliberate?
In my own game I prefer to use 250 coins to the pound. I also use a silver based system with large value gold coins.
1 silver penny = 1 D&D sp = 250 to 1lb 1 gold penny = 20 sp (1 AD&D gp) 250 to 1 lb *rarely used 1 gold crown = 320 sp 16 to 1 lb.
While largely a matter of personal preference I find that the silver penny-gold crown setup restores a lot of the WOW factor to finding the gold. Silver is used for normal day to day transaction.
Some other types of money I use with this system are
1 silver mark = 240 silver penny = 1 lb. This is a silver bar stamped with a maker/mint mark.
1 gold mark = 5120 silver penny = 1 lb. This is a 1 lb gold bar.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 273 Location: Fayetteville, GA Karma: 5
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #4 on Oct 16, 2009, 6:28pm »
Wow.
I've long thought the size and weight of the coins, as well as the prices in D&D in general were highly absurd and lest of all, annoying and impractical.... but, man.. actually seeing a full handful of 20 'D&D coins' really puts it in perspective. Sheesh. Were they 'gold pieces', what's in that huge, hulking handful is what it would take to buy two stinking lanterns for F's sake. You'd need twice that amount to buy a longbow.
One question.. you were talking in the text that you were simulating "gp" with 2 coins - and in the pictures you were referring to them as "sp"? Was that deliberate?
Oops, I thought I noted "sp" as "simulated pieces". I've updated the original post.
Joined: Jul 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 65 Location: Corpus Christi, TX Karma: 7
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #7 on Oct 16, 2009, 9:12pm »
I've pretty much made up my mind to say, if I run for a group that cares, that g.p. and s.p. and all that are units of account, so when I say you got 200 gp, the literal number of coins in there is ambiguous but quite a bit more. That's the best way I can think of to deal with it without having to redo any tables in different units.
But as always in my strange and roving existence, wonder soon drove out fear; for the luminous abyss and what it might contain presented a problem worthy of the greatest explorer. -H.P. Lovecraft, "The Nameless City"
harami2000 Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 298 Karma: 7
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #8 on Oct 16, 2009, 9:15pm »
I've got a little illustrated thing about the size of D&D money on the S&W page of my site. (I've only dealt with gold pieces so far)
Sleek site and nice pic (Cc-by-sa-3.0, btw) and the hyperbolic "hoots and squalls of outrage from the "realists" who insist that such coins would be the size of dinner plates" got a chuckle, too. Interesting that your chosen coin was minted at almost exactly 100 to the (modern) pound.
Your "3mm thick" example might benefit from an explanation that casting (q.v. cash) would be highly likely to obtain such neatly stacking coins given the tech level in most campaigns since it's not the diameter, but the thickness that's the "issue" as noted on the DF thread.
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #9 on Oct 18, 2009, 2:44am »
Gotta say... I think the very first house rule I ever used way back in 1979 was the changing of coin weights. I think a silver piece in my game came in at 240 to the pound. Of course that didn't always make treasure more portable since I frequently used monster treasure to "buy" and equal value of stuff.
If a monster had 240sp (1 pound) I would usually give them 10-30 coins and the rest be in armor, weapons, rugs, nicer furniture, animals (food supply?), art, etc.
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #11 on Oct 18, 2009, 5:52pm »
I have always taken an abstract approach to the size and shape of money. When I tell my players they find a bag of 50sp, what I'm actually saying they found a bag of mostly sliver coins of different types, with some mixed coins of gold and copper, totaling to about the 50 sp or so, more or less. Only when they look through it, sort it out, or count them up, would I get a little more detailed. I do like to describe the more unique types of coins that get thrown into the batch (oddly-shaped ones, and ones with interesting designs on them), but I avoid describing each and every coin because it gets really tedious, really fast!
I really like the pictures of all the $1-sized copper coin props. This really reinforce the fact that copper pieces in D&D are a deathtrap into themselves - given their size and value, it usually not worth hauling around, unless you cant find better.
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #13 on Nov 27, 2009, 5:59pm »
I remember as a kid how we ignored a lot of things, so nothing hurt the game or our fun...
But, we would merrily go along and we'd find a large sack in a treasure chest holding some 2,000 coins, and some gems, and giant centipedes and so on. We'd loot the entire thing, cart it back, sell it all off or split it up and bank it or buy stuff. A few days later (broke) we'd hit pay dirt (a pile of coins) start filling our now empty large sack and the DM would say, "It only holds 600 coins." So we'd take some stuff out and put it in the empty chest and the DM would say "It only holds 500 coins."
We wouldn't notice how odd it was the sacks and treasure chests seemed to shrink and swell almost by will...
Changing the coins to weigh 100 per pound and enforcing a reasonable encumbrance system (ignore small stuff, don't sweat things that might vary a lot, and so on) made it all that much easier to relate to (and keep up with) what was going on. With the right encumbrance system and so on, a pile of coins is still a pile of coins -- and still might require some mules to help cart it out.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 245 Location: Behind the Orange Curtain Karma: 10
Re: How BIG are gold pieces? (includes pictures) « Reply #14 on Apr 6, 2010, 3:05pm »
Here's a little riddle for you:
What weighs more: a pound of gold, or a pound of feathers?
No, it's not a trick question - the pound of feathers weighs more. There are two different "pounds": the Troy pound, and the Avoirdupois pound. Troy pounds are used for weighing precious metals, and was about 373 grams, while the Avoirdupois pound is the 'regular' pound at about 454 grams. "Avoirdupois" is from the French "measured in pounds", meaning 'common goods'.
So - here's the other side of that riddle: What weighs more: an ounce of gold, or an ounce of feathers?
Answer: the ounce of gold. There are only 12 troy ounces in a troy pound, so the troy ounce is about 3 grams heavier than a normal ounce.
Why do I bring this up? (I mean aside from being an insufferable know-it-all...) When Charlemagne set the 'pennyweight' at 240 pennies to the pound, he was talking about Troy pounds. Silver pennies were about 1.5 grams apiece, close enough that you can round off to 3 silver pieces to the gold piece - or about 100 GP or 300 SP to the (avoirdupois) pound. (of course, back then they were also talking in terms of 'grains', not 'grams' - there were 24 grains in a pennyweight, or 5760 grains in a troy pound. There are 7000 grains in an avoirdupois pound.)
A "Pound Sterling" was a troy pound of the silver alloy popularized by the germanic silversmiths ("Easterling Silver", which later corrupted to "Sterling silver") - 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper.
The "Mark" (like the "Talent"*) was a unit of weight - 8 troy ounces, or 2/3 of a (troy) pound. So a Mark of silver works out to 160 silver pennies, while a Mark of gold would be a little more than 53 of the gold Solidi from Byzantium.
(My father collects ancient and medieval coins - a real silver penny is a bit lighter than a dime, but bigger around and much thinner.)
If you wanted to add to the player's headaches, a popular pastime for many governments was 'debasing' currency. They would collect all the old coins they could find (usually by passing edicts that required everyone to turn in their coins), melt them down, add in a bit more base metal like copper, and then re-mint the coins. Once they'd done this several times in a row, the coins would be pretty worthless. (Now in the days of paper money, they just have to print some more - but the effect is pretty much the same.) A party might find a cache of coins, only to find out that they are worth much less than they imagined.
* If you want to get Ancient, rather than Medieval, the Greek drachma varied in weight from one state to another, but the 'standard' was about 4.3 grams - close enough to call it 100 to the pound. A "Talent" was about 26 kilos, or 6000 drachmai. Incidentally, one talent of silver was the wages needed to pay the crew of a trireme for one month. Keeping a fleet of ships running was an expensive proposition.
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/waysoftheearth/Ways_100x100.jpg "[avatar]")
![[image]](http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/waysoftheearth/10sp.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/waysoftheearth/20sp.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/waysoftheearth/60sp.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss56/waysoftheearth/handfulof20sp.jpg "[image]")
Logged
![[avatar]](http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/images/estarsm.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k58/machfront1/MeGlowFB2_TB.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d164/Calithena/FightOn1Cover.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://i541.photobucket.com/albums/gg386/grifonetto/th_9293.jpg "[avatar]")
![[avatar]](http://demo.net.hu/kazar/napkorong_avatar.jpg "[avatar]"){kind=avatar}
![[avatar]](http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh73/Malcadon/Other/CarcosianSorcerer.jpg "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")