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May 20, 2013, 4:28am

Original D&D Discussion :: Dungeons & Dragons (1971-1978) :: Men & Magic (1974) :: cleric scrolls

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Topic: cleric scrolls (Read 805 times)

talysman
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #15 on Jul 17, 2012, 10:02pm »

Jul 17, 2012, 9:20pm, untimately wrote:

Jul 17, 2012, 8:45pm, aldarron wrote:

Also, only clerical spells are reversible.

"Note that under lined Clerical spells are reversed by evil Clerics." (M&M page 22)

One could interpret that not as reversible, but different "reversed" versions of the spells (i.e., normal clerics can't cast cause light wounds even if they want to).

That depends on how you interpret this note on the reversed Raise Dead spell, Finger of Death:"A Cleric-type may use this spell in a life-or-death situation, but misuse will immediately turn him into an Anti-Cleric." Does this only apply to Finger of Death, or can Clerics prepare the other reversed spells as well, but with a risk of turning into anti-clerics? And are anti-clerics unable to cast Raise Dead or Cure Light Wounds?

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untimately
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #16 on Jul 18, 2012, 9:36am »

By the way, have an exalt for that overlap idea ralph!

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aldarron
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #17 on Jul 18, 2012, 2:50pm »

Jul 17, 2012, 9:20pm, untimately wrote:

Jul 17, 2012, 8:45pm, aldarron wrote:

Clerics don't "memorize" spells from a spellbook. They pray/meditate for them.

Reference?

This is all I could find:

"The number in each column opposite each applicable character indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) by that character. Spells are listed and explained later. A spell used once may not be re-used in the same day." (M&M page 19)

Gary was asked about cleric spell books a few times and said he didn’t include them. Here’s a collection of his houserules http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/03....ouse-rules.html

**EDIT: also, very very rarely will I look to anything in AD&D for clarification of OD&D, but this quote seems to be a reasonable exception "It is well known by all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic-users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities. By meditation and prayer the clerics recieve the specially empowered words which form the various spells...." Gygax, DMG:38
At the time of Gygax's writing, those experienced players could only have been OD&D players.**

Arneson – There’s no mention of any kind of spellbook in either BTPBD or the FFC. The only written magic mentioned is scrolls. In the FFC there are alchemical “formula” scrolls and BTPBD (page 31) says “Only Magic-User spells will be found on scrolls, and only a Magic-User may employ them.”

Since neither Gygax nor Arneson included clerical spellbooks, their clerics could not have used spellbooks to prepare spells.

Jul 17, 2012, 9:20pm, untimately wrote:

Jul 17, 2012, 8:45pm, aldarron wrote:

Also, only clerical spells are reversible.

"Note that under lined Clerical spells are reversed by evil Clerics." (M&M page 22)

Righto, only Anti-clerics cast reverse spells just as only lawful clerics turn undead.

I also think an anti-cleric can cast any clerical spell they know, either normally or in reverse if it makes sense. Here is an example from an early tomb of horros game run by Gygax and written up in Alarums & Excursions #4 September 1975, by Mark Sawnson; “Our sixth level cleric walked into it. A female anti-cleric promptly emerged and threw a curse.”

The character had walked through a gate that changed alignment and sex. Note that the Cleric spell “remove curse” is not one that is underlined as reversible in the books but Gary reversed it anyway.

Jul 17, 2012, 9:20pm, untimately wrote:

One could interpret that not as reversible, but different "reversed" versions of the spells (i.e., normal clerics can't cast cause light wounds even if they want to).

Technically, the magic-user also does have two reversible spells:

Transmute Rock to Mud
Stone to Flesh

Technically chanted in reverse, yes, but not reversed in the sense of the anti-cleric spells, which is also hinted at in that they aren't underlined.

Note that in both cases two spells must be cast and the second, chanted in reverse, undoes or “counters” the effect of the first. Neither spell can simply be cast in reverse to turn normal mud into rock or normal rock into flesh.

« Last Edit: Jul 24, 2012, 9:36pm by aldarron »

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aldarron
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #18 on Jul 19, 2012, 1:40pm »

Jul 17, 2012, 9:09pm, untimately wrote:

Jul 17, 2012, 8:22pm, aldarron wrote:

Interesting idea.

I think this is all of them:

Light
Continual light
Dispell magic
Detect magic
Detect Evil
Hold person
Locate Object
Protection from evil
Protection from evil 10’ r
Remove Curse

Ha, we wrote almost identical responses.

I don't see Dispell Magic on the cleric list, though. I suppose one could treat Dispell Evil as a different expression of the same spell. "Similar to a Dispell Magic spell..." and all.

Heh. crossposted.

Right you are. Dispel Magic is not on the list. I "remembered" it being there but it turns out I was remembering it from Beyond This Point Be Dragons where it is listed as a 4th level Cleric spell. BTPBD makes a deal out of that because Clerics are supposed to have stronger magic than MU's.

Anyway that means there are only 9 MU/Cleric spells in common, so doubling the frequency in which those 9 spells show up on scrolls would give them a frequency of 25.7%, which fits pretty nicely with Ralph's suggestion.

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untimately
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #19 on Aug 1, 2012, 7:14pm »

Hmm, I guess clerics don't need read magic to use scrolls? As it's not on their spell list.

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aher
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #20 on Aug 1, 2012, 9:09pm »

Jul 17, 2012, 1:32pm, untimately wrote:

Monsters & Treasure, page 24:

"There is a 25% chance that any scroll of spells found will contain those usable by clerics."

I often look to Basic D&D to resolve these difficulties... Magical Item Subtable 2: Scrolls on p. 229 in the chapter on Treasure in the Rules Cyclopedia is used to randomly generate scrolls found by adventurers. You roll d% to find the type of scroll, the #of spells, and the spell levels of the spells. This table explicitly gives a 25% chance that the scroll found is clerical.

While it is true that a number of magical spells and clerical spells overlap, the Basic D&D rules say of scrolls:

Who Can Use: Only magic users, elves, and
10th level (or higher-level) thieves can use magical
scrolls; only clerics and druids can use clerical
scrolls; and only druids can use use druidic scrolls.
(RC, p. 234)

However, there is one exception, namely protection spells. But these may be used by any PC who is literate:

Protection spells: Anyone who can read--not
just spellcasters--may use protection scrolls; the
protection spell disappears as it is read aloud.
(RC, p. 234)

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Cameron DuBeers
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Re: cleric scrolls
« Reply #21 on Aug 2, 2012, 12:29am »

Aug 1, 2012, 9:09pm, aher wrote:

However, there is one exception, namely protection spells. But these may be used by any PC who is literate:

Protection spells: Anyone who can read--not
just spellcasters--may use protection scrolls; the
protection spell disappears as it is read aloud.
(RC, p. 234)

Also in OD&D, Volume II: Monster & Treasures, p. 32 All "Protection"
spells can be used by any character who is able to read.

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