Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Thread Started on Jul 15, 2012, 6:12pm »
I have had difficulty figuring out exactly which rules from Chainmail I should use with OD&D's alternative combat system. Currently I am using a modified version of the Chainmail turn sequence, together with Chanimail's missile weapon ranges and some of Chainmail's rules for movement and missile attacks, such as halt-move, indirect fire, pass-through fire, split-move and fire, and the rules for rate of fire of missile weapons (though I am in the process of changing some of these to fit with a 10-second combat round).
Has anyone created a list of the rules from Chainmail which are required in order to play OD&D, even if one is using the alternative combat system? As far as I can tell, OD&D has no rules for initiative (or turn sequence), missile weapon ranges, charging movement, and morale. At a minimum, I would assume that every game of OD&D at least needs a rule for initiative and a rule for missile weapon ranges. It's hard to keep Chainmail out of one's OD&D, even when using the alternative combat system!
Another question I have relates to using Chainmail for rates of fire. Does Chainmail give rates of fire for hand-thrown missile weapons, such as axes, daggers, and spears?
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Re: Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Reply #1 on Jul 15, 2012, 7:00pm »
Keep an eye on this thread JM. I'm not one of them but we have some posters here who are pretty savvy when it comes to Chainmail. You should get the answers you seek.
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Re: Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Reply #2 on Jul 15, 2012, 8:10pm »
I don't know that there's anything in Chainmail that's strictly necessary to make the alternative combat system work, but there are some neat bits.
Chainmail on horsed combat:
"On the 2nd round of melee the horse as well as its rider attack [...] and able to attack a different opponent than its rider, but only footmen"
"When fighting men afoot mounted men add +1 to their dice for melees and the men afoot must subtract -1 from their melee dice. Men may be unhorsed by footmen if they specifically state this is their intent before dice are rolled. A score equal to a kill, with no subtraction for their being afoot, indicates a successful unhorsing. An unhorsed man is possibly stunned [...] Remounting requires one-half turn, as does voluntary dismounting."
The morale rules, as you mentioned, are useful.
If your party encounters a fighting-man in his castle, they may need to engage in a joust (as per U&WA). Chainmail has a fun little jousting mini-game that can be used as-is.
There are some Chainmail rules that could significantly change the character of D&D melee, if you were to use them. This would get parties wielding far more polearms (not a bad thing, in my opinion):
"All troops formed in close order, with pole arms, can only suffer frontal melee casualties from troops armed with like weapons. While a Knight armed with a lance could attack a halbard formation, he could not attack a formation of pikes."
Certainly none of the things are required, but they could be fun.
Re: Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Reply #3 on Jul 15, 2012, 9:30pm »
Paulg: I agree that all the Chainmail rules you mentioned would be fun in D&D. I'm currently using the Chainmail rule for unhorsing, for example (though it hasn't come up yet in actual play).
For this thread, I am mainly interested in figuring out which Chainmail rules must be used with D&D, though (even if one is using the alternative combat system). Don't get me wrong--it's also interesting to think about the relative merits of adding various bits of Chainmail to a D&D game which uses the alternative combat system.
I had forgotten all about D&D's rule for lords in castles jousting with passerby. That's another example of a Chainmail rule which one "must" use even with the alternative combat system.
The Chainmail jousting rule is pretty neat. Even though it is a clear example of a Chainmail rule that us ACS folks are supposed to use, I wonder about how well it would work with D&D, since as far as I can tell the jousting rule does not take into account the combat ability of the jousters. I would want a 9th level Lord (for example) to have an advantage when challenging a low level character to a joust.
In any event, I still think that some Chainmail rules really are required for playing D&D, rather than being just fun but optional additions. Above, I suggested the list of such rules would include at least some portion of Chainmail's turn sequence, together with its rules for missile weapons ranges. I think I would add to that Chainmail's rules for rate of fire of missile weapons. (Though not a definitive reason for adding them to the list, Chainmail's rules for missile weapon rate of fire do show up in modified form in AD&D, which suggests at least that Gygax was using Chainmail ROF rules in his D&D campaign.)
D&D also carries over Chainmail's rules for movement rates, but I think these are already present in D&D, in the encumbrance table on page 15 of Men and Magic, and in the monster statistics table on pages 3-4 of Volume 2: Monsters & Treasure.
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
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Re: Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Reply #4 on Jul 15, 2012, 10:37pm »
Truly required?: none.
Initiative - nah, players always go first (ala Arneson) or use the dex score, just like it says in the dex score description. Morale? there's the reaction table, but if you don't like that, try DGUTS. Missile ranges? - crib something from your Napoleonics game. Even the rules for jousting don't have to come from CHAINMAIL. The DM is free to use whatever means of adjudication they think best - mind you, Gygax was actively trying to get people to buy CM., and wanted people to use it with D&D, but D&D was sold as a wargame to a wargaming audience who were expected to use thier own preferences for resolving combat.
But in the general spirit of the question, here's a couple combat related things for which CHAINMAIL usefully fills in gaps.
Catapults - you need these rules both for catapults and you need them as the rules for thrown objects, such as when giants hurl rocks.
I have had difficulty figuring out exactly which rules from Chainmail I should use with OD&D's alternative combat system.
Hi Jonathan, and welcome to the boards
I created a summary of the Alternative Combat System a while back. It includes sources for each "rule" -- including those from Chainmail -- which may (or may not) be helpful in your search.
That aside, I think most of your specific questions about the Alternative Combat System are covered in the 3LBBs and/or the FAQ, if only obliquely in some cases. E.g.,
OD&D is loose on the notion of a turn sequence; implying only that it up to the referee to determine the order in which stuff happens. Initiative is thus specified by the referee, or else determined by 1d6 roll adjusted by dexterity (as explained in the FAQ).
Movement rates are explicitly given throughout M&T, and also mentioned elsewhere in the 3LBBs.
However, complex movement rules (including orders, halt moves, split moves, charges, etc.) are not "required" for skirmish scale OD&D combats (although I don't doubt that some players might employ these table top battle-like systems). I think it is generally assumed that OD&D combat is more abstract than these systems of troop movements might imply.
Regarding the supposed "maximum missile ranges", these are irrelevant underground and hence are not required for dungeon-based games. Even in the wilderness maximum missile ranges are not practical for accurate shooting (except by massed missile troops) and hence are not really necessary where small companies of adventurers with mixed weaponry are concerned.
Despite various ROFs being given in Chainmail, and again in AD&D, none are given explicitly in OD&D. This is a "very good thing" considering that missile fire is already overrated in OD&D, having an unmatched +2 to hit adjustment at short range, and +1 to hit adjustment at medium range (which was changed in AD&D to -2 at medium and -5 at long). Hence, I prefer to stick to just one attack roll per round for missiles.
One Chainmail rule that does persist into OD&D is the notion that missiles cannot be fired into melee. Another is the idea that firing missiles on the move is disadvantaged: Chainmail states missilemen on the move may fire only if they beat a die roll made by the opponent (p11). This is not explicitly translated into OD&D terms, but I reconcile it by applying a -2 penalty for any non-stationary missile fire (excepting Elves, who are allowed to move and fire without penalty).
Morale is determined with a roll of 2d6 and is adjusted by loyalty. Poor rolls will cause intelligent foe to surrender. Once again, it is up to the referee to adjudicate what is a "poor" roll -- although the reaction table is a great place to start.
Initiative - nah, players always go first (ala Arneson) or use the dex score, just like it says in the dex score description. Morale? there's the reaction table, but if you don't like that, try DGUTS. Missile ranges? - crib something from your Napoleonics game. Even the rules for jousting don't have to come from CHAINMAIL. The DM is free to use whatever means of adjudication they think best - mind you, Gygax was actively trying to get people to buy CM., and wanted people to use it with D&D, but D&D was sold as a wargame to a wargaming audience who were expected to use thier own preferences for resolving combat.
I guess what I mean by a rule being "required" is not that the game can't be played without them, but that there is a gap in the game which requires filling, whether from Chainmail or from a ruling by the referee. I assumed that gaps in the OD&D combat rules were meant to be filled in by Chainmail wherever possible, but that might have been a false assumption.
Men and Magic does mention the influence of Dexterity on order of action, although this does not cover all cases, since monsters lack Dexterity scores. If the Chainmail turn sequence or some variant is not used, the referee would have to make a ruling to figure out how to apply the Dexterity rule for monsters (one thinks of Holmes' rule to roll 3d6 for monster Dexterity on the spot, which always seemed ad hoc to me, though potentially fun nevertheless).
But in the general spirit of the question, here's a couple combat related things for which CHAINMAIL usefully fills in gaps.
Catapults - you need these rules both for catapults and you need them as the rules for thrown objects, such as when giants hurl rocks.
Structure damage in sieges and such.
Elves wielding magic swords get an additional +1
Thanks for pointing those out. I have puzzled over what to do with grenade-like missile weapons in OD&D; it makes sense to adapt the rules for catapults from Chainmail. However, a ruling is still required to determine the range for grenade-like missile weapons.
I created a summary of the Alternative Combat System a while back. It includes sources for each "rule" -- including those from Chainmail -- which may (or may not) be helpful in your search.
This looks great, and answers a lot of questions. Sorry for missing that.
OD&D is loose on the notion of a turn sequence; implying only that it up to the referee to determine the order in which stuff happens. Initiative is thus specified by the referee, or else determined by 1d6 roll adjusted by dexterity (as explained in the FAQ).
I was aware that the FAQ mentions the initiative roll: "Surprise naturally allows first attack in many cases. Initiative thereafter is simply a matter of rolling two dice (assuming that is the number of combatants) with the higher score gaining first attack that round. Dice scores are adjusted for dexterity and so on." (The Strategic Review, #2, p. 3).
The FAQ only says higher score gains first attack. It doesn't say that higher score gains first move, nor does it say when spells occur. However, the most straightforward way of interpreting this is probably that a side performs all of its actions in order of initiative--dispensing with Chainmail's more elaborate turn sequence. (This is a side issue, but for my own game, I am considering giving the simpler version of initiative a whirl during our next session.)
Regarding the supposed "maximum missile ranges", these are irrelevant underground and hence are not required for dungeon-based games. Even in the wilderness maximum missile ranges are not practical for accurate shooting (except by massed missile troops) and hence are not really necessary where small companies of adventurers with mixed weaponry are concerned.
Well, I agree that Chainmail's missile ranges make an awkward fit for OD&D. But I think it is presumed that those ranges will be used, with or without the ACS. (They show up in AD&D 1st edition, for example, and in other early versions of D&D.)
This is a separate issue, but my way of handling missile weapon ranges in OD&D is to use the Chainmail ranges, but to reinterpret the distance of a scale inch such that one inch equals 5 feet. This reinterpretation makes the ranges more applicable to a dungeon setting, and also reflects the increased difficulty of targeting a single opponent in comparison to a mass of troops.
Despite various ROFs being given in Chainmail, and again in AD&D, none are given explicitly in OD&D. This is a "very good thing" considering that missile fire is already overrated in OD&D, having an unmatched +2 to hit adjustment at short range, and +1 to hit adjustment at medium range (which was changed in AD&D to -2 at medium and -5 at long). Hence, I prefer to stick to just one attack roll per round for missiles.
Previously I used the Chainmail rules for ROF, but I prefer your ruling, with the addendum that one or more rounds must be spent reloading heavy crossbows or arquebuses.
In any event, thanks for the reply, Ways. You've given me a lot to think about.
I guess what I mean by a rule being "required" is not that the game can't be played without them, but that there is a gap in the game which requires filling, whether from Chainmail or from a ruling by the referee. I assumed that gaps in the OD&D combat rules were meant to be filled in by Chainmail wherever possible, but that might have been a false assumption.
Thanks for pointing those out. I have puzzled over what to do with grenade-like missile weapons in OD&D; it makes sense to adapt the rules for catapults from Chainmail. However, a ruling is still required to determine the range for grenade-like missile weapons.
In CoZ I basically change yards to feet, and adapt the bombing rules, which are basically an expansion on the CM catapult rules.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Re: Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Reply #10 on Jul 18, 2012, 11:00pm »
I agree, Gronan, morale is important for OD&D--or at least, it ought to be. It's surprising to me that Gygax downplayed morale in the FAQ: "This is a factor which is seldom considered" (TSR, Vol. 1, No. 2, p. 3). The 2d6 method which Gygax proposes is vague at best. On the other hand, Chainmail's relatively complex rules for morale do seem somewhat out of place for OD&D. I prefer something along the lines of Gygax's 2d6 rule, but with a little more guidance about when to check morale and about what number different types of troops or monsters need to roll in order to pass the morale check.
The 2d6 method which Gygax proposes is vague at best.
Hmm, I don't know if it really is that vague. Let's have a look, shall we?
Here's what the 3LBBs have to say about morale, loyalty and panic (and later, sudual):
Quote:
Capture of Non-Player Monsters: Morale dice can cause a man or intelligent monster to attempt to surrender or become subdued.
M&M p13
Quote:
Subdued monsters will obey for a time without need to check their reactions.
M&M p13
Quote:
Loyalty of Non-Player Characters (Including Monsters): Men, dwarves and elves will serve as retainers with relative loyalty so long they receive their pay regularly, are treated fairly, are not continually exposed to extra-hazardous duty, and receive bonuses when they are taking part in some dangerous venture.
M&M p13
Quote:
Judgement of this matter is perforce subjective on the part of the campaign referee,
Non-player characters and men-at-arms will have to make morale checks (using the above reaction table or "Chainmail") whenever a highly dangerous or un-nerving situation arises. Poor morale will mean that those in question will not perform as expected.
M&M p13
Quote:
Periodic re-checks of loyalty should be made. Length of service, rewards, etc. will bring additional plusses. Poor treatment will bring minuses.
M&M p13
Quote:
Bless: A blessing raises morale by +1
M&M p32
Quote:
BERSERKERS: They never check morale.
M&T p6
Quote:
BRIGANDS: Same as Bandits except +1 morale
M&T p6
Quote:
DERVISHES: fanatically religious nomads who fight as Berserkers, never checking morale
M&T p6
Quote:
CAVEMEN: They have -1 morale.
M&T p7
Quote:
MERMEN: Mermen are similar to Berserkers in most respects
M&T p7
Quote:
GOBLINS: when they are subjected to full daylight they subtract -1 from their attack and morale dice.
M&T p7
Quote:
KOBOLDS: Treat these monsters as if they were Goblins
M&T p7
Quote:
Orcs will defend their lair without morale checks until they are outnumbered by 3- 1.
M&T p7
Quote:
Orcs do not like full daylight, reacting as do Goblins.
M&T p8
Quote:
HOBGOBLINS: large and fearless Goblins, having +1 morale.
M&T p8
Quote:
GNOLLS: A cross between Gnomes and Trolls ... with +2 morale. Otherwise they are similar to Hobgoblins,
Quote:
SKELETONS/ZOMBIES: There is never any morale check for these monsters; they will always attack until totally wiped out.
M&T p9
Quote:
PURPLE WORMS: never check morale and will always attack.
M&T p15
Quote:
MINOTAURS: need never check morale.
M&T p15
Quote:
HORSES: Horses and Mules are panic-stricken by raging fire and strange smells, although those trained for battle are not nearly so likely to be affected.
M&T p20
Quote:
Potion of Heroism: makes a normal man act like a hero in all respects, including morale and combat.
M&T p32
Quote:
Wand of Fear: The Wand effects all creatures within a cone-shaped area eminating from it 6" outwards to a base 3" wide. All within it must make their saving throw as against magic or be panicked and flee.
M&T p34
Quote:
Drums of Panic: cause men and fantastic creatures who fail to make their morale throw to flee in rout (for morale throw use saving throw vs. magic).
M&T p37
Quote:
SHIP CAPTURE: A ship is captured when the morale of its crew breaks or when all defenders are dead or overboard.
U&WA p33
So what does it all amount to?
* Intelligent NPCs check morale with a throw of 2d6.
* Unintelligent NPCs do not check morale.
* Morale throws are adjusted by loyalty rating.
* Loyalty rating is not static but varies over time according to treatment, rewards, length of service and so on.
* The "right now" loyalty rating of any encountered men or monsters varies; "normally" adjusting morale checks by between +2 and -2, but occasionally enemy will flee immediately or will fight to the death. The referee should determine the monsters' loyalty modifier "on the spot" if it is not known prior to an encounter.
* A morale check is required if ever: 1) extra-hazardous duties are required (i.e., combat), 2) dangerous or unnerving circumstances occur (i.e., encounter traps, monsters, the threat of combat), 3) unfair treatment is received, 4) regular pay is not received, 5) bonuses are not received for taking part in an adventure.
* The morale roll is adjusted for loyalty, and also as follows: 1) A bless spell will adjust morale checks by +1, 2) Berserkers, dervishes, mermen, orcs defending their lair and not outnumbered at least 3 to 1, minotaurs, skeletons, zombies, purple worms (and presumably other, similarly huge-sized monsters) do not check morale, 3) Cavemen, and kobolds, orcs, goblins and hobgoblins in daylight, suffer a -1 morale penalty, 4) Brigands and hobgoblins have +1 morale, 5) Gnolls have +2 morale.
* Consult the following (re-worded, combat-centric) reaction table to interpret the result: ....2d6........Morale ...Score......Reaction --------------------------------- .2.or.less....Surrender,.subdued, captured ....3-5.......Back.off, withdraw, flee ....6-8.......Uncertain,.hold.the.line ....9-11......Press.the.advantage.strategically 12.or.more....Charge.impetuously!
* Subdued monsters are captured, and will obey for a time.
* All of the morale reactions are subject to referee's judgement.
* Horses and mules (and presumably other ordinary animals) are panicked by fire and strange smells, unless they are battle trained. Panic is very probably synonymous with rout in this context.
* potion of heroism improves morale by an unspecified degree (it is not made clear how a 4th level fighter's morale differs from a 1st level fighter's -- however, it seems reasonably to rule that this quaffing this potion means morale need not be checked at all).
* wand of fear and drums of panic are magic items that cause a morale failure if a saving throw versus spells is not made.
It is also worthwhile noting the rules for subdual:
Quote:
Capture of Non-Player Monsters: Morale dice can cause a man or intelligent monster to attempt to surrender or become subdued.
M&M p13
Here we see that surrender and subdual are considered more-or-less equivalent, in either case the enemy is captured. Therefore, the rules given explicitly for subdual might be thought to be applicable to morale tests in general.
This is what M&T says about subdual:
Quote:
Each round of melee the number of points scored in hits is ratioed over the total number the Dragon has (hit point total), the hits obtained being stated as a percentile of the total possible, i.e. 12%, 67%, etc. The percentile dice are then rolled to determine if the Dragon has been subdued. A roll equal to or less than the percentage of hits already obtained means the Dragon is subdued.
M&T p12
Most notably, the referee is instructed to test for subdual in every combat round in which the Dragon is hit. It does not seem unreasonable, therefore, that morale should likewise be checked in every combat round that damage or losses are suffered.
So, the 3LBBs do give quite a lot of detail on morale... it's just not all in one place.
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Re: Rules from Chainmail Required for OD&D Play « Reply #12 on Jul 19, 2012, 6:36am »
Hey, Jonathan -- welcome to the boards.
Just a warning that the topic that you brought up has the potential to explode on us. Not your fault; you had no way of knowing. Just thought you'd appreciate the heads-up.
There are two main camps: the "Chainmail is essential" group and the "you can play without Chainmail" group. Both are right in their own way, as you can interpret the OD&D rules with a couple of different styles in mind. I know of some folks who have essentially never heard of Chainmail who have played OD&D just fine, others who feel that the rules are incomplete without Chainmail.
I'd say listen to waysoftheearth and aldarron because they have both played the game with Chainmail. If you decide you don't like what they have to say, you can do just fine without.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
The 2d6 method which Gygax proposes is vague at best.
.....
* Consult the following (re-worded, combat-centric) reaction table to interpret the result: ....2d6........Morale ...Score......Reaction --------------------------------- .2.or.less....Surrender,.subdued, captured ....3-5.......Back.off, withdraw, flee ....6-8.......Uncertain,.hold.the.line ....9-11......Press.the.advantage.strategically 12.or.more....Charge.impetuously!
Nevertheless, I think the vagueness JM alludes to is a very real issue for many readers, precisely because of the lack of a table like the one you created above. Not having it spelled out that or some similar way has led to many ignoring Morale entirely.
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