Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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"Stat Check" thought « Thread Started on Mar 31, 2012, 1:24pm »
Instead of using skill lists, I've used the "wing it" approach of having players make stat checks. Typically those involve rolling under a stat to see if they succeed, or if it's a real challenge rolling under half the stat to see if they succeed.
The only problem is that I don't like the "roll low" philosophy because I like the notion that a natural 20 is goodness and a natural 1 is really bad.
So ... this popped into my head today. It's probably not that innovative but I'm curious if anyone likes it. (It does borrow some 3E-style terminology via DN or TN, which may turn off some gamers.)
For a stat check, roll a d20 and add the stat to it to beat a difficulty number. (Easy = 20, Average = 25, Hard = 30)
Example: A fighter with 15 STR makes a STR check and rolls an 11. 15+11= 26 so he would succeed at an easy or average task but fail at a hard one.
The advantage of using the actual stat instead of a stat bonus to modify the die roll is that makes each stat number slightly different (e.g. a 10 is better than a 9, even if both would be +0 bonus). The disadvantage is that the numbers to be added together are a little larger.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 206 Karma: 18
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #1 on Mar 31, 2012, 1:53pm »
d20s generate broad probability bands of 5% per number. The average roll is 10.5. Any system you do based on rolling 1d20 has to be based around that percentage. On 3d6 the average roll also happens to be 10.5. So for an average person a difficulty of 21 will lead to success 50% of the time. Your "easy" threshold will mean 55% chance for an average person, but less for every point below average that they are in a stat.
I think you're going to have trouble being granular if every single point you have in a stat is a 5% chance of success/failure. Have you thought about using stepped bonuses a la B/X, or adding the stat to a percentile chance rather than a d20 roll?
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #2 on Mar 31, 2012, 2:06pm »
I think that is a pretty solid way to go about it.
I like the notion that each point counts significantly better than the modern stat bonus system. And it does do away with the low rolling, though I am still undecided whether rolling low is a good or bad thing in itself (part of me kind of likes the idea that you roll high for combat and low for stat checks, but part of me is put off that stat checks would be the only thing you roll low for).
The only thing I think I would miss is giving a sort of critical success when players roll exactly equal to their stat number. Though I get that the nat 20 could supplant this.
Another possibility if you want to roll high is just to invert your current system. Eg. a stat of 16 means roll above a 4 on a d20.
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #3 on Mar 31, 2012, 2:59pm »
The DM of the group I play in (1E/2E hybrid, currently going through T1-4) uses roll-under d6 stat checks. 2d6 if really easy, 3d6 average, 4d6 hard, 5d6 extremely difficult etc. He'll sometimes require a 3d6+1 or 3d6+2 as a modifier to make it a bit harder. As a player, it's fun to roll a handful of dice. Not sure where this system comes from originally.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
The DM of the group I play in (1E/2E hybrid, currently going through T1-4) uses roll-under d6 stat checks. 2d6 if really easy, 3d6 average, 4d6 hard, 5d6 extremely difficult etc. He'll sometimes require a 3d6+1 or 3d6+2 as a modifier to make it a bit harder. As a player, it's fun to roll a handful of dice. Not sure where this system comes from originally.
This is the system I like to use. I first saw it in The Fantasy Trip (In The Labyrinth) by Steve Jackson.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 215 Location: Greenlawn, NY Karma: 4
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #7 on Apr 1, 2012, 9:59am »
To get away from the problem of 20 not being good, roll 3d6 instead.
As a bell curve, 3d6 is good both for generating abilities (most people end up average) and for rolling tasks (most actions are performed with average results). Modifiers become much more important, because they change the entire curve, rather than just slap a flat 5% difference to the probability. If you're already really good, a modifier won't make you much better, but if you're only average, a modifier will let you achieve results that were much less likely without it.
The DM of the group I play in (1E/2E hybrid, currently going through T1-4) uses roll-under d6 stat checks. 2d6 if really easy, 3d6 average, 4d6 hard, 5d6 extremely difficult etc. He'll sometimes require a 3d6+1 or 3d6+2 as a modifier to make it a bit harder. As a player, it's fun to roll a handful of dice. Not sure where this system comes from originally.
The first time I saw this was The Dragon magazine, #41, Sept. 1980, in "The Halls of Beoll-Dur" adventure:
"... there is an original procedure for saving throws which is used in some locations... roll 3, 4 or 5d6 (the number of dice varies) and subtract one point from the dice roll for every two levels of experience the character has attained. Compare the resulting number to a specified ability (this also varies), and if the adjusted dice roll is less than the character's score for the ability in question, the saving throw is considered made."
It does say "original." I'm not sure if that means brand new or new to D&D, imported from elsewhere. Even if these authors came up with it originally, on their own, I'm not so sure this wasn't around before then.
Joined: Nov 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 245 Location: Behind the Orange Curtain Karma: 10
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #9 on Apr 2, 2012, 11:32am »
I've been poking at the whole "opposed roll" problem, and was thinking about adapting a system from Pendragon: you have to roll under the appropriate stat, but if both of the opponents make their roll, the one that rolled highest is the winner.
For example: an orc with a strength of 17 is trying to force a door to get at the fleeing party - the fighter (STR 16) is trying to hold the door shut long enough for the thief (DEX 15) to get a spike hammered into the door jamb. On the first round, the DM rolls a 12 for the orc, and the fighter's player rolls a 14. Both are successes, but since the fighter's roll is the higher, he is able to hold the door. The thief, however, muffs his DEX roll getting 16, so he is still struggling to get the door secured. On the second round, the DM rolls 5 for the orc, but the fighter's player rolls an 18, so the orc wins the opposed roll. Since the fighter didn't miss by much, and the orc didn't have a particularly good roll, the DM describes how the fighter slowly looses his footing and the thief watches in horror as the door inches slowly open, creaking on its hinges as the fighter starts to frantically scuffle, desperately seeking traction.
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #10 on Apr 2, 2012, 8:13pm »
That system for opposed rolls isn't a bad one, but honestly I have never had any taste for opposed rolls vs monsters.
The story is about the PCs, why muck things up by giving monsters stats? The fighter should have to hold the door based on his strength alone. You might say that it is easy to hold the door against goblins, and difficult to hold the door against a minotaur, and even impossible against a dragon and modify the roll accordingly. But I think that to actually give those monsters stats moves the focus from where it should be: the fighter. I especially don't like the idea of a PC and an NPC competing for something and robbing the PC of a great roll just because the NPC rolled a little better.
Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #12 on Apr 30, 2012, 6:32am »
I tend to just use 3d6 roll under your stat, no modifiers or anything like that. I feel as though this best represents character ability mechanicaly, in the sense that someone with a high score in any given stat has a better chance at the relative task than someone with an average or low score. I did at one point a long time ago used the d20 for stat checks but realised that if scores do not reach above 18, which is the flat cap there will always be a 10% failure chance which ended up not good for the players.(if i decide that the character is simply destined to fail at a given task or check I make a roll in secret and inform the player of that characters misfortune). Though this is generally the exception not the rule.
Koren n'Rhys Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
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Re: "Stat Check" thought « Reply #13 on Apr 30, 2012, 1:25pm »
I also use the xd6 system described by Zenopus, with a roll equal/under stat required, but I like the Target 20 bit, so I'm going to steal a modded version of your idea Fin.
xd6 + STAT >= 20 2d6 if really easy, 3d6 average, 4d6 hard, 5d6 extremely difficult
I also use the xd6 system described by Zenopus, with a roll equal/under stat required, but I like the Target 20 bit, so I'm going to steal a modded version of your idea Fin.
xd6 + STAT >= 20 2d6 if really easy, 3d6 average, 4d6 hard, 5d6 extremely difficult
I think you got those backwards. 3d6 + STAT is an average roll of 10.5 plus an average stat of 10.5, so it fits. 4d6 is an average of 14, though, so it's easier than a 3d6 roll.
You might want to change it to 3d6 average, 2d6 tricky, 1d6 hard, 1d6/2 extremely difficult.
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