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Post by James Maliszewski on Dec 19, 2007 15:40:15 GMT -6
A friend of mine, who's still trying to puzzle out my newfound love of OD&D, took a look at the hit dice progressions from the LBBs and he suggested that, statistically, the Fighting Man's works out to roughly the same spread as a d8 every level. Likewise, the Magic-User's works out to a d4 every level. Interestingly, the Cleric's also works out to being a d4 every level.
Not sure what to make of it all, but it was intriguing. I will confess to an irrational fondness for multiple hit dice types, so this gave me more food for thought.
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Post by ffilz on Dec 19, 2007 16:04:28 GMT -6
Hmm, I think that analysis is wrong. d8 per level would have to be nd6+n for level n (i.e. 8d6+8 for 8th level). The magic user progression is also not quite right:
Hit Dice Average d4/lvl average
1 3.5 2.5
1 + 1 4.5 5
2 7 7.5
2+ 1 8 10
3 10.5 12.5
3+ 1 11.5 15
4 14 17.5
5 17.5 20
6+1 22 22.5
7 24.5 25
8+ 1 29 27.5
8 + 2 30 30
8 + 3 31 32.5
8 + 4 32 35
9+ 1 32.5 37.5
9+2 33.5 40
Frank |
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Post by James Maliszewski on Dec 19, 2007 16:22:09 GMT -6
I think my friend's point was not that the two were statistically identically but that they were close enough that using a d4 would be simpler. If you look at the analysis you did, you'll see that, for all but a few levels, the difference is not all that great, particularly once you get to level 9 or so.
Anyway, it was just an observation.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 19, 2007 21:02:14 GMT -6
I don't have my LBB handy, but my recolection is that the boxed set d6 hit dice gives the magic-user a lot more hit points compared to the fighter than does the Greyhawk d4 system. I actually like the way the LBB handle chacter HD.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Dec 20, 2007 6:50:02 GMT -6
I don't have my LBB handy, but my recolection is that the boxed set d6 hit dice gives the magic-user a lot more hit points compared to the fighter than does the Greyhawk d4 system. I actually like the way the LBB handle chacter HD. I think this is a clear case where we can see how OD&D developed through play. From the firs time Magic-Users were introduced in M&M, there is the assertion that they are potentially the most powerful class in the game and thus it's no surprise that, over time, strictures would evolve to hem them in and balance them better against other classes. The d4 HD from Greyhawk is the most enduring example of this. I agree, though, that the LBB system has certain advantages and it's definitely more "fair" in the abstract. Whether it works well in every campaign is a different question, so I think the eventual change is a reasonable response to player and referee perceptions of the MU's relative power. That is, it was likely a widely used house rule that gained canonical status through use. |
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Post by ffilz on Dec 20, 2007 13:03:48 GMT -6
Actually, look at my analysis above, it's not entirely true that Men & Magic gives better hit points:
- Hit Points - M&M
Level M&M Greyhawk Ahead by
1 3.5 2.5 1
11 29 27.5 1.5
12 30 28.5 1.5
13 31 29.5 1.5
14 32 30.5 1.5
15 32.5 31.5 1
16 33.5 32.5 1
Greyhawk puts the magic user ahead at these levels:
- Hit Points - Greyhawk
Level M&M Greyhawk Ahead by
2 4.5 5 0.5
3 7 7.5 0.5
4 8 10 2
5 10.5 12.5 2
6 11.5 15 3.5
7 14 17.5 3.5
8 17.5 20 2.5
9 22 22.5 0.5
10 24.5 25 0.5
Assuming the Nd6+4 followed by N+1D6+1 trend continues, the chart would continue:
17 9+3 34.5 11+6 33.5 1
18 9+4 35.5 11+7 34.5 1
19 10+1 36 11+8 35.5 0.5
20 10+2 37 11+9 36.5 0.5
21 10+3 38 11+10 37.5 0.5
22 10+4 39 11+11 38.5 0.5
At level 23 they become equal
23 11+1 39.5 11+12 39.5 =
And then at level 27, Greyhawk again gains, and stays ahead forever, gaining an additional 0.5 hit point advantage every 4 levels.
27 12+1 43 11+16 43.5 0.5
Of course the very high level hit poiunt charts are entirely speculative and mostly irrelevant. Frank |
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serendipity
Level 4 Theurgist
Member #00-00-02
Bunny Master
Posts: 140
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Post by serendipity on Dec 28, 2007 7:21:08 GMT -6
Of course the very high level hit point charts are entirely speculative and mostly irrelevant. Frank (choking) As I've only been in one game which dipped into levels above ten, even the 'mid-level' or merely 'high' level hit point charts are irrelevant to me.... But it's comforting to know that those PCs who aspire to greatness beyond the merely heroic have a place to go. Go team! --Sere |
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 28, 2007 7:51:38 GMT -6
Actually, look at my analysis above, it's not entirely true that Men & Magic gives better hit points... While your numbers are technically correct, Frank, you have lost the other half of the argument. I was comparing the Magic-user to the fighter, not comparing the Magic-user in one dice system to that of another. Recall that in the LBB the fighter also progresses with d6, whereas in Greyhawk those switch to d8's. |
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Post by ffilz on Dec 29, 2007 0:50:26 GMT -6
Ahh, good point Finarvyn, and definitely true (since the Men & Magic fighter does not get nd6+n, so nd8 is definitely ahead for almost all levels).
Frank
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