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Original D&D Discussion :: Dungeons & Dragons (1971-1978) :: Men & Magic (1974) :: Charm Person

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Topic: Charm Person (Read 820 times)

Zulgyan
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Charm Person
« Thread Started on Oct 26, 2007, 7:47pm »

So how do you interpret:

Quote:

it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under
the influence of the Magic-User

?

What is the extent of this spells power in your game? How strong is that "completely under the influence"?

« Last Edit: Oct 26, 2007, 7:49pm by Zulgyan »

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ant
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #1 on Oct 26, 2007, 10:39pm »

I call it similar to the current version of Charm Person. The charmed individual will see you as a dear friend, fighting with (and for) you. Something possibly life-threatening or very much out of character might call for a reaction roll. Nothing obviously suicidal though ("O! Boon companion! I beg thee to stand strong against this dragon/demon/horde of undead whilst I, your good friend, beat a hasty retreat shouldering this sack of king's gold!")

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Finarvyn
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #2 on Oct 27, 2007, 11:42am »

I agree, Ant, that the secret is not to put the charmed one into obvious peril.

I interpret Cham Person a lot like a hypnosis situation where a person can be persuaded and influenced to do things for you and act friendly toward you, but not to harm himself in the process.

Perhaps the thing to do is to allow the charmed person a saving throw every time a command is given that might be a disadvantage to the person. For example, a person handing over gold isn't life threatening but might trigger a saving throw because it's a personal loss. On the other hand, a bank employee handing over gold might not trigger a save because it's the bank's money and not the person's. Just a thought.

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foster1941
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #3 on Oct 27, 2007, 1:42pm »

Of course you're able to interpret it however you want. I usually interpret it as meaning that while the charmee still has some degree of autonomy -- he's not in a trance -- he is extremely open to "suggestions" from the charmer, and as long as it's possible to view the charmer's "suggestions" in a reasonable light he will comply. So the charmed person would, IMO, likely agree with "suggestions" from the charmer to betray (or even kill) his former companions, to hand over treasure, to take lead while exploring, to bring up the rear while retreating, etc. Only obviously unreasonable or suicidal suggestions would be refused (but even there, note that in Gygax's 2004 retro-OD&D mini-campaign he apparently allowed the players to kill off charmed NPCs with little to no hassle, so perhaps something like "hey buddy, why don't you hold still for a sec and keep your eyes on me while my friend here comes up behind you..." would work).

Alas, other DMs I've played under invariably nerf this spell and make it effectively worthless (saying it has to be cast before combat starts, and that the charmed person won't do things he likely would've done anyway with a positive reaction roll...) and players in my games (probably having become accustomed to other DMs' handling of the spell) almost never take it, relying instead on Sleep and Magic Missile. Charm Person, just like Phantasmal Forces, can vary widely in usefulness from DM to DM, so it's always a good idea to make sure everybody's on the same page in advance before someone either casts or is affected by the spell and a big argument over interpretation erupts mid-game.

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calithena
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #4 on Oct 27, 2007, 6:46pm »

In our early play it was almost universally equivalent to total mind control. If you did CP on a goblin in combat, the goblin switched sides and fought for your MU until dead. It could instantly get you companionship in taverns as well.

This seems powerful but it's less effective than Sleep - doesn't work on lots of creatures, saving throw - and if the main function of all NPCs/monsters is to be fighty fodder having a humanoid as a permanent slave is not a big deal.

This spell was sort of considered a 'thinking man's alternative' to Sleep in the OD&D groups I played in in the late seventies.

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philotomy
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #5 on Oct 27, 2007, 7:34pm »

I don't have a hard-and-fast rule to govern charm person, but I tend to allow it to have a potent effect, closer to mind-control than just "he thinks he's your friend." Charms in fantasy fiction and myths tend to be pretty powerful, and I like that approach. I may also take the victim's Wis and Cha into account when ruling on how a charmed person reacts.

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dwayanu
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #6 on Nov 1, 2007, 7:47pm »

I treat it (and Hold Person, BTW) as compelling obedience. The weak have their very wills and perceptions subverted. Those of heroic caliber find themselves trapped in bodies suddenly like puppets whose "strings" are in another master's hand.

That's how analogous spells seem generally to work in the classic s&s stories I recall.

Factors established firmly enough through roleplaying may give a victim some "wiggle room" or even a chance to shake off the glamour. That provides (e.g.) one avenue for Charisma and loyalty of henchmen to come tellingly into play.

« Last Edit: Nov 1, 2007, 7:56pm by dwayanu »

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coffee
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #7 on Nov 8, 2007, 3:29pm »

I'm gearing up to run some OD&D (if I can find any players, that is!). One of the things I'm looking at is spells, such as this one. I've written up for the players the clarifications that came out in Greyhawk (although I'm not using paladins or thieves or indeed anything else out of the supplements.)

One thing that struck me is Detect Evil. Here's the description from my copy:

-----
Detect Evil: A spell to detect evil thought or intent in any creature or evilly enchanted object. Note that poison, for example, is neither good nor evil. Duration: 2 turns. Range: 6".
-----

I like the wording. If people had read this, there would have been a lot fewer questions to Sage Advice in The Dragon when AD&D came about; the answers invariably said pretty much this same thing.

(Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread. I'll shut up now.)

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korgoth
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #8 on Nov 8, 2007, 5:00pm »

Speaking from a "Classic" perspective (I give this caveat because I haven't yet played true OD&D), I think Charm works either way: the charmee is your new best friend, or the charmee is your pawn.

The latter interpretation is, as said, more powerful. However, if you go with the former way almost no one will willingly choose it over Sleep at low levels (they're covered by the same immunities, and Sleep allows no save and hits numerous targets; Charm's only advantage is that it works on high level guys, which you probably won't be facing at first anyway, and who will probably make their save).

I like Magic-Users being wily and powerful. They have lots of disadvantages (like low HP), but your standard hero would be foolish to attempt a frontal assault... there's just too high a chance of getting charmed, fried or transformed into a toad. So go ahead and let their spells be stupidly powerfull... a single oversight can lead to their death (trap, dragon breath, etc.) whereas a Fighting Man has an extra cushion of hp standing between him and death.

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tgamemaster1975
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Re: Charm Person
« Reply #9 on Nov 18, 2007, 3:18pm »

I play these type of spells as quite powerful, much more so than hypnosis and I do allow a save adjustment for high WIS. (18 +2 and 15-17 +1)

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