Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 432 Location: Hollywood, California, USA Karma: 40
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #15 on Oct 26, 2007, 12:35pm »
I can't remember if I've posted this before or not (and even if I have it probably wasn't all in one place and definitely wasn't in this thread), but my current thoughts on weapons in D&D (derived/simplified from Chainmail & Supplement I) go something like this:
Weapons have a bonus or penalty on their "to hit" roll, as follows:
Dagger*, hand axe, spear*: -1 to hit Mace, hammer, sword*, battle axe, pike: no adjustment Military pick, morning star, flail, pole arm*, halberd*: +1 to hit Two-handed sword, mounted lance: +2 to hit
*+2 to hit against prone opponents with AC 2-5
All weapons do 1 die of damage against man-sized opponents. Swords, pole arms, halberds and spears thrust vs. charge do +2 damage and pikes, two-handed swords, mounted lances, and spears set vs. charge do 2 dice of damage against opponents horse-sized or larger.
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #16 on Oct 28, 2007, 5:41pm »
Oh. Judging from the anonymous smite(s) this is a subject forbidden to discuss or provide any dissenting viewpoints on. My bad, and I extend my apologies to all and sundry.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #17 on Oct 28, 2007, 7:35pm »
Quote:
Oh. Judging from the anonymous smite(s) this is a subject forbidden to discuss or provide any dissenting viewpoints on. My bad, and I extend my apologies to all and sundry.
Um ... as far as I know this isn't a forbidden subject or anything like that. True. the "realism" argument runs somewhat contrary to the philosophy of OD&D which has an emphasis on ease of play. Personally, I don't bother with critical hit charts, hit location charts, or any number of "realistic" rules. However, that doesn't mean that others might not be interested and bring such rules into their OD&D game.
My guess is that you pushed someone's buttons and got a SMITE for it. Tell you what; I'll give you an EXALT to cancel out the effects of the SMITE.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 432 Location: Hollywood, California, USA Karma: 40
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #18 on Oct 28, 2007, 7:39pm »
Well, since you brought it up, I'm the one who smote you. And I did so not because of your "dissenting viewpoint" but because of the (IMO) inappropriately aggressive and insulting manner ("nonsense," "myopia," etc.) in which you presented it. You can disagree with someone without acting like a jerk about it...
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #19 on Oct 28, 2007, 7:59pm »
Quote:
inappropriately aggressive and insulting manner ("nonsense," "myopia," etc.) in which you presented it
I confess I only skimmed some of the posts the first time through and didn't notice the phrases you mention, Foster, but in general you're on the money with your observations so I take your opinions seriously.
Angantyr hasn't posted many times and I don't want to chase him away, but if he's nasty I don't want to encourage him to stay that way either. I'll go back and re-read, but in the meantime perhaps we can all stay civil and polite in our discussion.
EDIT: I re-read the earlier posts and don't find them as offensive as Foster, but clearly a reminder is in order that OD&D is not designed to be a simulation game in the way that AD&D or Rolemaster or others might be. Clearly Angantyr has some experience with weapon use, but has perhaps forgotten that OD&D takes pains to "abstract" its combat system to the point where such details are rarely used to that depth.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 598 Karma: 17
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #20 on Oct 28, 2007, 11:40pm »
You know I just re-read many of the posts about weapons and damage generated by them. I played around with sharp things too. I also know, I'm gonna hand over my wallet to somebody who gets the drop on me!
Seriously though, take it easy! In my OPINION, if you put 100 different gamers who studied weaponry, and the martial arts in one room, I think the result would be everyone thinking how much of a smart ass everyone else was.
You all raised very valid points about how damage is generated, reach being important, and that training and technique make any weapon dangerous. But you guys for got two things: Crossbows and Longbows.
Missle weapons in D&D have always seemed too weak in some respects. Pucture wounds from arrows and bolts are nasty, but not always lethal. Most people died from complications and sepsis when wounds festered.
D&D is just a skirmish wargame with some amateur acting for the most part. Nobody should expect miracles from this game. You want complicated? Play HarnMaster, or RoleMaster. Just my two cents worth.
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 410 Location: Urbana, IL Karma: 26
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #21 on Oct 29, 2007, 7:44am »
Bows and such provide sufficient advantage by simply not allowing a return strike in some situations. In a world where the average joe has hit points in the single digits, how many points of damage do they really need to do?
And I suspect missile weapons have been weaker mechanically over many editions because the average player wants to play a manly swordsman, so close to the orc he can smell the halitosis.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 598 Karma: 17
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #22 on Oct 29, 2007, 10:39pm »
Halitosis and Orcs in the same sentance? I thought it went without saying.... As far as missle weapons being weakened by rules, I'd agree with that. The Complete Arduin rules seemed about the most reaonable I've ever seen without being too clumsy. Rolemaster does pretty well with this too, as does HarnMaster.
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Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #23 on Oct 30, 2007, 10:47am »
I don't think the missile weapons were so much weakened by the rules as left behind while the melee weapons were strengthened.
In the 3LB, both a bow and a sword would do 1d6. In Greyhawk, the sword now does either 1d8 or 1d12, but the bow still only does 1d6.
After that, when you factor in strength bonuses to hit and damage (and other such things like magic), melee weapons really leave the missile weapons standing.
However, if you just stick with the 1d6 for everything, it stays balanced.
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #24 on Oct 30, 2007, 12:38pm »
Also, if you're using Chainmail (or a derivative) as the basis of your turn/combat sequence, missile weapons can often attack more than once in a round, giving them additional damage-dealing potential.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 942 Karma: 27
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #25 on Oct 31, 2007, 1:11am »
IIRC, there was a similar "thread" back when (i.e., pre-Web) in the R.E. Howard fanzine "Amra." It basically came down to each weekend warrior singing the praises of his own weapon of choice (with a loud chorus seconding Poul Anderson's lauds to the sword).
I've come across (but can't "bibliograph" now) contemporary references to dismounted French knights' preferring broken lances wielded as spears to their expensively forged swords.
D&D is plainly fantasy, and so I reckon the exploits of such worthies as Conan and Fafhrd sounder precedent than any appeal to history.
calithena Moderator Official "Fight On!" Scribe member is offline
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Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #26 on Oct 31, 2007, 8:54am »
Someone with some books told me that swords were primarily defensive weapons while spears were offensive. This vaguely jibes with my weekend warrior experience; I've always preferred the longest swords I could get in stick and boffer fighting because I'm a defensive fighter, trying to ward off blows and go for the sure thing. Ward, ward, ward, punish when he gets desperate and tries to get past my guard. The spear attempts to offset this by being too long, and it's harder to ward off, but if you get around the end just once it's an instant win for the sword, dagger, whatever.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #27 on Oct 31, 2007, 12:34pm »
I remember back in the mid-1970's when Star Wars came out and a friend and I got these flashlight-with-tube light sabres for Christmas. I had always thought of my self as a "sword in one hand, shield in the other" type of fighter until he and I started dueling with light sabres in his front yard. When I actually started swinging tubes around I found that I was much more comfortable with a two-handed style.
Based on minimal actual combat experience, I think that the style of fighting seems to be as important as the weapon involved. An active fighter with a lesser weapon can infilct similar damage as a passive fighter with a greater weapon.
Just goes to show that OD&D boxed set "d6 damage for everything" method isn't so bad after all......
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 942 Karma: 27
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #28 on Nov 1, 2007, 6:39pm »
correction & clarification to my post (pg. 1, Reply #7) comparing bonuses:
With d6 damage, +6 to hit (if all is usable) increases average damage per round (APR) by 1.05 pips. Plus 1 to damage increases the APR by a full pip only with a 100% hit chance.
With a 50% base chance, +3 to hit is roughly equivalent to +1 damage (+.525 vs. .5 to APR).
With 85%, +1 to damage yields about 1.6x the APR boost (+3 almost 5x) of +3 to hit.
With 10%, +1 to damage yields less than 1/5 (+3 about 3/5) the boost of +3 to hit.
"If all is usable" refers to the practically relevant cap of 100% (in some games, 95%) chance to hit.
At 15% to 20%, a +1 bonus gives roughly the same APR whether applied to hit chance or damage roll (the former adding .175). Since first-level characters start with 20% to hit AC2, I call damage bonuses "grosser."
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,224 Location: Argentina Karma: 51
Re: Some thoughts about weapons « Reply #29 on Nov 16, 2007, 5:51pm »
Quote:
Weapons have a bonus or penalty on their "to hit" roll, as follows:
Dagger*, hand axe, spear*: -1 to hit Mace, hammer, sword*, battle axe, pike: no adjustment Military pick, morning star, flail, pole arm*, halberd*: +1 to hit Two-handed sword, mounted lance: +2 to hit
*+2 to hit against prone opponents with AC 2-5
foster, which of these weapons would be considered 2 handed??
Quote:
All weapons do 1 die of damage against man-sized opponents. Swords, pole arms, halberds and spears thrust vs. charge do +2 damage and pikes, two-handed swords, mounted lances, and spears set vs. charge do 2 dice of damage against opponents horse-sized or larger.
What would be the difference bewteen thrust or set vs. charge?
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