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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 10, 2009 8:18:32 GMT -6
In yesterday's game a player made a use of Hold Portal I had not seen before. They entered a room with three stone sarcophages in horizontal position, that were part of a wall. Each contained a "feathered warrior zombie". When they noticed that one of them was beginning to open, 3 fighting-men ran up to it and pressed on the stone cover so that the zombie could not get out. Suddenly from the two other sarcophages the zombie warriors started to emerge. So the magic-user casted hold portal on the sarcophagus the fighters were pressing shut, so that they could deal with the other 2 feathered warrior zombies.
Now, it's not totally clear if the spell objective was a "door" or "portal", but I thought it was a clever use of the spell and ruled that it worked.
Evil stuff coming out of sarcophages is pretty common in dungeons, ain't it? This use of Hold Portal makes the spell a much more interesting choice! You can keep mummies, vampires and other nasty monsters trapped for a good while in their coffins.
Did any of you came upon a similar situation? What do you think about the ruling?
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 10, 2009 8:56:56 GMT -6
I like it and would almost certainly allow it on the first go. Reward for quick thinking player and such. After that I might require a roll of some sort if the thing being held was un-door-like enough.
-- Anything that actually IS a doorway I'd always rule can be held.
-- A sarcophagus lid that's actually a secret door? Easy...it's a portal.
-- A stone that a giant uses to cover the entrance to his cave? Probably...maybe a 5 in 6 chance that it works.
-- PCs roll a stone to cover a cave entrance? Probably not...maybe a 2 in 6 chance that it will work.
-- PCs push a donkey cart in front of a doorway and try to hold portal the cart? No way.
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Post by Random on Apr 10, 2009 9:18:21 GMT -6
That's an excellent use the spell. Bravo to your players.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2009 10:24:56 GMT -6
I'd allow it but I have a luxury you did not: time enough to consider ramification of such a ruling. Thinking about if for a few minutes yielded no problems with a looser interpretation of "portal".
That was my first impulse, too. I would have allowed it simply out of (a) admiration your player's quick thinking and (b) the rule of "cool" ...
Thus, I hope I would have ruled the same as you. I love it when players think of clever uses for a spell.
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Post by coffee on Apr 10, 2009 11:03:24 GMT -6
I gotta agree. It's cool, and I'd allow it.
And if you should decide later that it's too powerful of a use of the spell, you can always explain things to your players between games -- that way, everybody understands that they're free to come up with cool uses for spells and such, but that they can't just expect to always have their way.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 10, 2009 11:50:53 GMT -6
Lord Kilgore, nice analysis.
Coffee, yes, this laxer interpretation makes the spell much more powerful, but I'm always in favor of giving the non-sleep spells a higher punch!
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Post by amityvillemike on Apr 10, 2009 12:29:39 GMT -6
That's a very nice way to rule on unorthodox application of the spell, Lord Kilgore. I'll have to remember that.
Once upon a time, I was playing in a game where the party MU attempted to seal a large jar shut with Hold Portal. The DM ruled that since the lid merely sat atop the jar he didn't consider it a door or a gate. That ruling started the local house rule that in order for Hold Portal to work it had to have some sort of attachment to the frame in which the portal was set. Doors, gates, and windows were all affected by the spell since they either hung from hinges or were set into a frame that limited their movement in some manner. Some years ago, I would have said that a sarcophogus lid - unless hinged - would not be affected by the spell.
Nowadays, though, I'd do what you did and reward the player with success since that's a pretty good use of the spell.
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Post by snorri on Apr 10, 2009 13:41:18 GMT -6
What is a great fun with hold portal is, BTB, monsters in a megadungeon can open door freely....  |
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 10, 2009 14:01:05 GMT -6
I'd allow it but I have a luxury you did not: time enough to consider ramification of such a ruling. Absolutely. Over the years I've personally gone from a " if in doubt, don't allow it" to a " if in doubt, rule in favor of the players...for now" stance. As Coffee said, if you reflect later and change your mind, just explain it to the players. They might not like it, but it's better than saying in game " yeah, that worked last time but it doesn't this time." The DM ruled that since the lid merely sat atop the jar he didn't consider it a door or a gate. That ruling started the local house rule that in order for Hold Portal to work it had to have some sort of attachment to the frame in which the portal was set. Doors, gates, and windows were all affected by the spell since they either hung from hinges or were set into a frame that limited their movement in some manner. To be honest, that might probably have been my first impulse. But the spell is hold portal, not hold door. A doorway is a portal even without a door. (Though there's nothing to hold  ) Using the "it must have hinges or similar" ruling is fine, but then that would leave hinged jar lids as fair game, I'd think. |
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Post by coffee on Apr 10, 2009 14:05:36 GMT -6
I'd be much more lenient these days than I used to be. Especially since I just looked up the world "portal" on Dictionary.com.
I especially like definition #3:
How many of them have doors on them? None that I've seen. (Not that I've seen many mines, but tunnels? Lots of them!)
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Post by coffee on Apr 10, 2009 14:06:41 GMT -6
Absolutely. Over the years I've personally gone from a " if in doubt, don't allow it" to a " if in doubt, rule in favor of the players...for now" stance. Exactly. Me, too. Have an exalt for that. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 11, 2009 18:34:42 GMT -6
hmmm...
would you let Hold Portal keep a sword from being drawn?
...seems a stretch to me.
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 12, 2009 15:51:06 GMT -6
would you let Hold Portal keep a sword from being drawn? No way. Not a "portal" or a "door" or anything that resembles either or could be used as either. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 12, 2009 16:02:57 GMT -6
ok. just playing with how far people would stretch the interpretation.
how about a backpack which one much open to access? Or the pull-strings
of a pouch? A trap you've found in the floor 10' ahead - it opens to drop people
into a pit - could that 'portal' to the pit be held? What about 'magical gates'?
Say there's a mirror that teleports viewers away, or lets things come from the
other side. Could Hold Portal be used to prevent these operations?
Some pretty tenuous stretchings perhaps, but not beyond consideration.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2009 17:03:18 GMT -6
I would rule a sarcophagus lid, coffin lid, or window shutter would all be "door-like" enough for Hold Portal to work on them. A detected pit trap door I would probably allow, too ... though I wouldn't allow "blind" casting in hopes of locking such; the M-U would have to know where it was to be able to hold it.
Magical gates and all those other closable items? Probably not, with the caveat that as referee I reserve the right to invoke the "rule of cool".
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Post by coffee on Apr 12, 2009 17:46:58 GMT -6
See, this is when the players have to be willing to play by the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter.
Sure, you can stretch vague wording as far as you want to, but that quickly gets into the realm of rules-lawyering.
I think a good rule of thumb is: If it's cool, and works, then let it stand. When it starts ticking people off, that's when you slam the door on it.
(I realize this advice itself is hopelessly vague, but such is the nature of things.)
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 12, 2009 18:52:54 GMT -6
though I wouldn't allow "blind" casting in hopes of locking such; the M-U would have to know where it was to be able to hold it. I'd never thought of this but I agree with it. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 12, 2009 19:00:16 GMT -6
See, this is when the players have to be willing to play by the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter. Sure, you can stretch vague wording as far as you want to, but that quickly gets into the realm of rules-lawyering. I think a good rule of thumb is: If it's cool, and works, then let it stand. When it starts ticking people off, that's when you slam the door on it. (I realize this advice itself is hopelessly vague, but such is the nature of things.) True. I was just braining-out some boundary conditions that came to mind. There's a line (one that once crossed becomes glaringly obvious) between finding creative uses for a spell and trying to 'break' it for excessive advantage. |
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 12, 2009 19:34:26 GMT -6
I think the best approach is not to "pre-think" things to much. Just play, and resolve ad hoc whenever a new situation comes up. You don't need to know beforehand how you will solve every posible situation.
Getting surpriced by the players is a big part of the fun as a referee.
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Post by ragnorakk on Apr 12, 2009 19:36:47 GMT -6
true true
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Post by kenmeister on Apr 12, 2009 22:24:42 GMT -6
I also allow hold portal to shut a portal that is not being propped open. This gives that nice horror movie effect where the fleeing people run to the exit only to see it close right in front of their faces and refuse to budge open.
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Post by Zulgyan on Apr 12, 2009 22:27:42 GMT -6
Love it.
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Post by Lord Kilgore on Apr 13, 2009 7:57:41 GMT -6
I also allow hold portal to shut a portal that is not being propped open. This gives that nice horror movie effect where the fleeing people run to the exit only to see it close right in front of their faces and refuse to budge open. I'll second Zulgyan. I love that and am stealing it now. This has been a great thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2009 8:59:36 GMT -6
I also allow hold portal to shut a portal that is not being propped open. This gives that nice horror movie effect where the fleeing people run to the exit only to see it close right in front of their faces and refuse to budge open. A nice idea, definitely "cool". |
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