Poll Question: When do clerics have to make this choice?
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Total Votes: 39 Total Voters: 39
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Topic: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos (Read 3,916 times)
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,674 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Thread Started on Nov 11, 2008, 8:05am »
The following represents a conversation that occured on a board and I have removed the names becasue that part doesn't matter. My text occurs normally, while others' replies are bold and blue.
I just would like to retain the "you don't have to choose Law or Chaos until 7th level" rule, like the LBB.
Um ... where is that in the LBB?
On pg 7: "Note that Clerics of 7th level and greater are either 'Law' or 'Chaos', and there is a sharp distinction between them."
What edition of the LBB are you reading from? My fourth printing does not contain the "of 7th level" part.
I'm not sure which edition I have; it's almost certainly one of the later ones, since it has halflings rather than hobbits.
This presents an interesting philosophical problem for us that I had not considered before. As there are different editions of the OCE, there is technically no single interpretation of certain rules.
I had always assumed that the real difference between 4th printing (mine) and later printings was simply the hobbit/halfling, ent/treent, etc. Tolkien reference changes. Clearly this is not the case and I need to find my 5th printing copy and do a line-by-line comparison one of these days.
[name deleted] wants to retain the option to be a neutral cleric in levels 1-6 because it's in the LBB and he's always done it that way. (And actually I did look it up in my 5th printing and yes, it does really say what you guys said was there. No mass hallucinations going on.)
I had no idea what he's talking about because it's NOT in the LBB that I have and had never heard of the rule before.
So ... is it really a LBB rule or not? If it's a "5th printing and later" rule then technically it was written after the supplements.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
So ... is it really a LBB rule or not? If it's a "5th printing and later" rule then technically it was written after the supplements.
Anyone have a thought on this?
It is a rule -- and one I personally like -- but it's one that, given the date of its insertion, puts it on a "lower" level than the original reading of the text. That is, I'd allow it in my games, because I think it has some interesting consequences, but it's not one that I'd argue is "essential" to OD&D the way other rules are. To me, it's a bit like folks who insist on calling halflings hobbits. There's ample textual support for doing so and, while I don't personally like it, there's no basis for my saying that it's "not OD&D." I think the same general approach applies here.
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 942 Karma: 27
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #2 on Nov 11, 2008, 8:51am »
I think the essential thing is that you have to choose before getting the goodies of a Patriarch/E.H.P..
(My take is that the "fanatically loyal" men at arms owe allegiance more to the Cause than to the character. Neutrality is untenable, and switching sides is ruinous!)
So ... is it really a LBB rule or not? If it's a "5th printing and later" rule then technically it was written after the supplements.
Anyone have a thought on this?
it's not one that I'd argue is "essential" to OD&D the way other rules are.
While I wouldn't argue that it's an "essential" rule, it certainly does change (to me) the entire characterization of the cleric class. 1. If a cleric can be "neutral" for levels 1-6, why should that cleric get to turn undead. 2. Also, if one argues that cleric spells are given by a particular god, what happens when that neutral cleric opts to choose a lawful or chaotic alignment? Does that mean that a different god is now supplying the spells?
I don't have "the answers" to this, which is why I thought I'd start a discussion. It just threw me that in 30+ years of playing pre-5th printing OD&D I'd never even heard of the rule, but that others clearly have played it that way for years and liked it.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Dec 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 669 Karma: 35
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #5 on Nov 11, 2008, 10:43am »
I'm going to appeal to a higher power*: you should do what you want in your own game. This sort of "by-the-book"-ism is the wrong way to go, philosophically speaking.
(*do I really have to point to the last page of The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures?)
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 384 Location: Maryland, USA Karma: 26
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #6 on Nov 11, 2008, 11:12am »
I just wrote about the whole Cleric/Anti-Cleric thing for a post I've scheduled on my blog, so I found this thread interesting in that I am clearly using a later edition of the LBB's for my ramblings there.
Fin, or anyone else with an earlier printing: Does the three-column Law-Neutrality-Chaos table appear the same way in those earlier editions? With Men in all three columns, Patriarchs in Law, and Evil High Priests in Chaos?
My such table is on page 9 of M&M. The table seems to infer that Men are not restricted to one particular Alignment, except in the case of 7th level and higher Clerics.
I agree that you should do want you want in your own game, but I also find that trying to sort out the original intent of the authors in providing the guidelines in the LBB's can be an interesting exercise.
1. If a cleric can be "neutral" for levels 1-6, why should that cleric get to turn undead.
I don't think they should, but you'll probably get players screaming about that one...
Quote:
2. Also, if one argues that cleric spells are given by a particular god, what happens when that neutral cleric opts to choose a lawful or chaotic alignment? Does that mean that a different god is now supplying the spells?
Well, strictly speaking, if you follow the books exactly, that doesn't come up in the way you'd think.
There is no "holy symbol" noted on the equipment list, but there is a cross (actually, two). This implies to me that we're in a fantasy version of 'our' world, i.e., you're not being granted spells (which I think of as miracles) by a god, but rather by God.
So, when you become an Anti-Cleric, you would be getting your powers from Satan.
The neutral cleric is a 'selfish' version of the Christian priest. The Anti-Cleric is one of those who works inside the church to bring it down from within.
Note how you can't tell visually what alignment a character is...
Anyway, as far as "by the book" for what it's worth, that's my take on it.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 679 Location: Lille, France Karma: 45
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #9 on Nov 11, 2008, 12:27pm »
I'm currently trying to finish an od&d clone in french (as od&d never has been published in french and very few people know it - red box was the first d&d version here), so I follow all debates of "by-the-text" od&d.
My printing has still a hobbit p.6, but halfling everywhere else. The rule of 7th level cleric being law or chaos is there too. And evil-priest is chaotic - but there is no description of alignements, so nothing tell that all chaotics are evil...
It suggest several possibilities ("Character types are limited as follows by this alignment", p. 9)
1) clerics can't be neutral, just as halflings can just be lawful , and dwarves, elves and gnomes can't be chaotics).
2) OR, a neutral cleric can't go up to 7th lvl
Nothing tell clearly that undead turning is linked to law and impossible for other, even if the fact that undeads are chaos suggest it. Only Evil priest lose this power (but once again, chaos = evil is unclear).
The rules states only that 7th lvl cleric must be Law or Chaos, and lose his henchmen if he changes side (which seems to be possible anyway).
The words Deity, Gods and Religion don't even appear in the text, even if titles like "village priest" clearly suggest they're religious-type. Evil is refered, but good is not (apart a qute stating that detect evil don't detect poison because it's not good or evil...).
Many people suggested od&d had some christian background asumption (monk-type cleric with cross, use of cross against vampires and so on), and the fact high-level have Turcopoles serving them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turcopole) makes them crusaders organised into military orders like Templars and Hospitalers (Chainmail suggest the same thing).
The only problem being the Lama, which suggest an influence of Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama). So our law priest is probably a Buddhist Templar.
I note also the evil "village priest" (3d level) is a shaman, which could involve that evil (chaos?) is shamanism.
I had a quick also on chainmail, where : "It is impossible to draw a distanct line between "good" and "evil" fantastic figures." Here's the Wizard (but it includes all Magic-users from 2d level), can't be neutral as well. And a 8th level m-u is a necromancer, no matter if he's good, evil, law or chaos... (same thing as poison, necromancy is nor good nor evil...).
A few other points on men :
*Brigands and pirates are chaos, but bandits and bucaneers don't seems so.
Fin, or anyone else with an earlier printing: Does the three-column Law-Neutrality-Chaos table appear the same way in those earlier editions? With Men in all three columns, Patriarchs in Law, and Evil High Priests in Chaos?
Yes, my 4th printing has the same 3-alignment table.
There is no "holy symbol" noted on the equipment list, but there is a cross (actually, two). This implies to me that we're in a fantasy version of 'our' world, i.e., you're not being granted spells (which I think of as miracles) by a god, but rather by God. So, when you become an Anti-Cleric, you would be getting your powers from Satan.
clerics can't be neutral, just as halflings can just be lawful , and dwarves, elves and gnomes can't be chaotics).
In my own mind I always thought of the Christianity element in OD&D, which is why I made characters choose Law/Chaos from the onset and I never allowed neutral clerics except for Druids. Obviously, different DMs have differing ideas on how this should work.
This whole thing is pretty wacky, as “By The Book” clearly means “By My Book”. I bet that most players pre-5th printing interpret it one way and post-5th printing interpret it another way, and both argue that it’s “by the book” for the edition they own.
Makes me wonder what other changes might have been made and I never noticed…
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,503 Karma: 57
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #11 on Nov 11, 2008, 2:40pm »
Part of the problem with printings is that each successive printing was more. That is, the first printing was 1000, the second 2000, and each successive one went up from there. So there are probably a lot more 6th printings (the OCE) than all others combined.
And the pdfs for sale are 6th printing too, aren't they? All of which means that the '7th level' thing is taken as 'gospel' (if you'll pardon the expression!) by the majority of players.
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 384 Location: Maryland, USA Karma: 26
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #12 on Nov 11, 2008, 3:35pm »
This whole thread is coming on my 'D&D By The Book' series, which is up to 10 parts (scheduled, anyway) now over at my blog. I wish I could change the name to 'By My Books', but it doesn't have the same ring. I knew that Hobbits and Balrogs were culled from the OCE's, but I didn't realize that further notes, clarifications and/or changes had been added.
I'll be sure to wrap all the Men & Magic posts up with a disclaimer in regard to using the OCE printing (which yes, is the printing for the PDF's).
I'm sure many of many conclusions will be debatable, but the whole thing is a challenging exercise for me. It's making me actually read, line for line, the LBB's in a different manner.
In the end, most of the opinions I reach are just my own filtration of ideas I have gleaned here this year. I hope at the end of the exercise I will feel 'closer to the authors intent' than before, and succesfully distanced myself further from my AD&D mindset.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 679 Location: Lille, France Karma: 45
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #13 on Nov 11, 2008, 5:17pm »
As I was intrigued by this question, I had a look on the list of "True law", ie. creatures which are always lawful - so can express the true essence of Law. There are very few :
Then, I verified what we know 'from the books' about them and their behaviour (nothing on Halfling, anyway) :
1) Treants “Although Lawful in nature, Treants are not prone to involve themselves in affairs which do not directly concern them: ."
2) Unicorns : "Only a maiden (in the strictest sense of the term) of pure and noble heart may approach the fierce and elusive Unicom. Unicorns may be ridden by maiden-warriors and will obey them. Otherwise, they will avoid human contact, unless pressed." 3) Pegasi : "Winged horses are wild and shy, being most difficult to capture. They will serve only Lawful characters"
4) Hippogriffs : "They are otherwise similar to Pegasi in nature, although the two creatures do not herd together and will normally fight each other."
5) Golden Dragons : "the only Dragons which are Lawful in nature although this exception is not noted on the Alignment table. They will often appear as human or in some other guise."
So : 1) Law tend to involve themselves in affairs which do not directly concern istelf (but not always do so).
2) Law is about purity, noble hearth and virginity (in the strictest sense)
3) Law is fierce and elusive, and avoid human
4) Law supporters fight with each other
5) Law can disguise itself when necessary.
It could seem a strange reading, but it makes sense:
1) Clerics of the Law consider the Law is not only for them, but for everybody. They could be proselytes and inquisitive. Privacy is not their affair, because Law is above all. They could have an inquisition.
2) Law has knightly ideals, care about chastity and purity – literally, this question of purity could lead to alimentary interdictions [it fits with the Purify food and water spell – another way we could follow to understand law]. Knights also fit to the religious orders from Chainmail.
3) Law is an abstract concept, somewhat theological. Its theology is faraway from human understanding and daily life, and its clerics have a very strict lifestyle (about chastity, purity and training to fight), which makes them far from ordinary people, both physically (they live in strongholds) and in their behavior.
4) Supporters of Law can have arguments and fights between themselves. It can go from rivalry between orders (like between Templars and Hospitalers), to religious schism (as Law is Law, it can be only One, one understanding, one interpretation. The unity of Law leads to schisms and heresies). [Templars could have pegasi and Hospitalers hippogriffs, both as favorites mounts for elites troops and as blazon].
5) The use of disguise suggest several possibilities, but considering the “crusades” mood which fits to military orders, It make me think to the Taqiyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya), ie. the right, for a shia muslim to hide his faith to save his life. Law clerics could use this dissimulation when traveling in unbelievers lands. It fits to the fact that all means are allowed in support of Law, as it shown by the example of poison (spells like Stick to snake)
[this is already a long post… I keep some ideas from the next one, and I’ll put it all-in-one file soon]
Joined: Apr 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 537 Karma: 30
Re: Clerics choose Law vs Chaos « Reply #14 on Nov 11, 2008, 5:44pm »
I wasn't aware of that rule, but I kind of like it. It seems like the cleric is just a cleric until 7th level, and then he is initiated into the inner circle of how the universe works. Enlightenment, and a choice...
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