How different are these sub-classes regarding activities often governed by rulings not rules, such as wilderness survival, climbing, picking pockets, disarming traps, and so on? Are there any activities which can only be attempted by a specific character?
Hello ynasmidgard,
You strike to the very heart of a matter that has always bothered me: skills of one class implying the exclusion of other classes even attempting an action! I think back to a time in the very early 90's when I was playing in someone's 2e game, and I wanted my character to build a fire. He asked me if my character had the fire building non-weapon proficiency, to which I replied, "No." He informed me that my character could not build a fire. I am of the opinion that this sort of ruling is terrible.
In the AS&SH game, specifically in Vol. III, which covers many of the rules, I have presented means by which anyone can attempt any action. This means, yes, even a non-thief can attempt to pick someone's pocket.
Things like climbing can be effected by anyone, and there are guidelines in place to help the referee handle this; of course, the thief and certain subclasses are able to climb with nigh preternatural capacity, but for everyone else, there are simple guidelines to follow.
In the case of the non-thief pick pocket, I have a section that guides the referee on non-standard task resolution; essentially, attempting some sort of test that is outside of the character's normal skill set.
Again, I believe anyone should be able to try anything that is reasonable. Reasonable being the operative word, here. If a thief tried to lay hands like a paladin, I would say, "Nice try. But in fact your dirt and bacteria stained hands just introduced an infection into your comrade's wounds." Just kidding. Well, not really. I tend to say things like that to my players.
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The other thing is, how big is the difference between Hit Points of a Fighter and a Magician? What is the damage that typical weapons deal (without modifiers from Strength and other sources)?
Fighter = d10 HD; Magician = d4 HD; Cleric = d8 HD, Thief = d6 HD. It is true, I am not exactly re-inventing the wheel, here, as I feel this tried and true method is excellent.
Typical weapons inflict between 1d4 to as high as 1d12 in damage.
An important distinction between AS&SH and the earlier game systems that inspire it is this: daily healing is much better in this RPG. If you get a good night's rest, obtain proper nourishment, and bind your wounds accordingly, you get to roll your HD type after the rest period (once per day), so a fighter 14 hp 2nd level fighter who has been reduced to 3 hp after a day adventuring gets to roll a d10 healing after a good night's rest. This serves a few purposes. Firstly, it reduces the need for clerics to memorize just healing spells; in fact, it means a cleric is not absolutely needed. Second, it removes the need to spend a week recovering after two encounters in a dungeon.
Re: [AS&SH] Volume I: Swordsmen & Sorcerers « Reply #16 on Dec 14, 2011, 12:14pm »
Thank you for your detailed answer!
How a game system approaches skills (or adventuring activities, whatever they are called) is indeed a crucial point for me, too. They are often a means of differentiating characters, which is a good idea; however, their interpretation is rarely satisfying.
As for HP and damage, increased healing is a rather good idea as it is not only practical but also supports the idea of HP as an abstract measure of one's fighting capabilities.
I am looking forward this game very much
« Last Edit: Dec 14, 2011, 12:15pm by Ynas Midgard »
I believe anyone should be able to try anything that is reasonable...
An important distinction between AS&SH and the earlier game systems that inspire it is this: daily healing is much better in this RPG. If you get a good night's rest, obtain proper nourishment, and bind your wounds accordingly, you get to roll your HD type after the rest period (once per day), so a fighter 14 hp 2nd level fighter who has been reduced to 3 hp after a day adventuring gets to roll a d10 healing after a good night's rest. This serves a few purposes. Firstly, it reduces the need for clerics to memorize just healing spells; in fact, it means a cleric is not absolutely needed. Second, it removes the need to spend a week recovering after two encounters in a dungeon.
1. I revise that slightly to: "I believe anyone should be able to try anything that is non-magical." Only magic-users can cast magic spells, only clerics can cast cleric spells, only clerics can turn undead, etc. But if it's something that can occur in the real world, I give the PC a chance to do it.
1. I revise that slightly to: "I believe anyone should be able to try anything that is non-magical." Only magic-users can cast magic spells, only clerics can cast cleric spells, only clerics can turn undead, etc. But if it's something that can occur in the real world, I give the PC a chance to do it.
Probably a good practice, Geoff, but even then I would never say never. I think of the Grey Mouser and how he learned a bit of magic from that hedge magician. That's just one example. There are a lot of instances in sword and sorcery fiction where a "normal" hero learns a forbidden incantation and casts a spell. In the proper circumstances, I might allow such a thing to occur, but as a general rule I agree with your assessment.
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2. I really like that healing system!
My players do, too. I can assure that not a one of them on the other side of the screen complained when it went from 1 hp of healing to HD type.
Say you have a group of 3rd level characters. Let's look at just the magician (8 hp) and the fighter (24 hp). The magician has sustained 4 hp of damage after a day of adventuring, and the fighter has sustained 12 hp of damage. Each, as is obvious, has been reduced to 50% of their max. After eating rations and resting the night, they each get back 1 hp. This implies that the magician has recovered from 12.5% of his wounds, while the fighter has recovered from just over 4% of his wounds.
If hit points are an abstraction intended to convey a combination of health, ability, durability, resilience, luck, divine favor, and so forth, and fighters are intended to be the most gifted in this department, I feel that their recovery rate should also be superior to their adventuring counterparts. All that being said, here is where I throw "logic" out the window: I love dice, I love randomness, so there is always the chance a fighter rolls a 3 on his d10 and a magician rolls a 4 on his d4. As an aside, I also allow fighters (and fighter subclasses) to re-roll 1 results.
You know, I am a huge REH fan, and so many times in his fiction, the hero is bloody and beaten; come the next morning, he stretches, shakes off his soreness, eats, drinks, and is as ready as he's ever been.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,327 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: [AS&SH] Volume I: Swordsmen & Sorcerers « Reply #23 on Jan 4, 2012, 5:21pm »
I'll add to the praise of the healing system: Totally captures the genre. Plus, I never looked at the arbitrary math of everyone healing one pt. a day.
Your system is, of course, broadly applicable for any milieu that wants to ditch clerics, which is just a bonus!
Re: [AS&SH] Volume I: Swordsmen & Sorcerers « Reply #24 on Jan 4, 2012, 5:40pm »
Portable subsystems are indeed welcome (long live D&D and the OSR!), but the most interesting part ought to be the setting. There are so many well-written systems; yet, well-supported settings number few (only Fomalhaut and Land of NOD come to mind).
Thieves (and their subclasses) use a d12 to resolve their skill checks. Thanks for asking!
So I've pledged
If your willing are the D6 & D12 checks roll over a TN or under a TN or something else?
Thanks again!
That's very generous of you, and much appreciated.
Regarding the d6 and d12 checks, the standard method of handling this is to say, for example, a 3-in-12 chance of success, which implies a 1, 2, or 3 is success. So, low is good.
I'll add to the praise of the healing system: Totally captures the genre. Plus, I never looked at the arbitrary math of everyone healing one pt. a day.
Your system is, of course, broadly applicable for any milieu that wants to ditch clerics, which is just a bonus!
I agree. I'm not really in the "ditch clerics" camp, but I would rather see them viewed as sorcerers rather than simple healers.
Joined: Sept 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 192 Location: San Diego, Ca Karma: 13
Re: [AS&SH] Volume I: Swordsmen & Sorcerers « Reply #28 on Jan 5, 2012, 11:01am »
Hear!Hear! I fully agree with the Cleric -> Sorcerer paradigm shift. It's something that I've done slowly over time in my games also. I love the feel of more cultish, less centralized religious system. I think it adds more flavor, more opportunity for role-playing, and far more wacky and weird fun.
How different are these sub-classes regarding activities often governed by rulings not rules, such as wilderness survival, climbing, picking pockets, disarming traps, and so on? Are there any activities which can only be attempted by a specific character?
The other thing is, how big is the difference between Hit Points of a Fighter and a Magician? What is the damage that typical weapons deal (without modifiers from Strength and other sources)?
We have a concept built in that basically covers the idea that anyone can try anything. Any man can attempt to disarm a trap, pick pockets, climb, and so forth, and guidelines are presented to cover this by use of a d6 roll, or in some cases an attribute check.
There are, however, some notable distinctions; while anyone can attempt to climb or hide, a thief can attempt such actions with nigh preternatural capacity. Of course there are some subclass abilities that other classes can not attempt at all, because they are "supernatural" effects. For example, the bard's mesmerize ability cannot be attempted by another class, and neither can a berserker's berserk rage; however, there is an advanced combat action for "fighting recklessly" that is somewhat like going berserk.
You mentioned wilderness survival. The ranger and barbarian can hunt, fish, build shelters, woodcraft and so forth without any need of a check. Other classes, depending on their background and as best adjudicated by the referee, might attempt any of these things with a d6 check, if deemed necessary.
Weapon damages are more similar to 1e. There is 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 2d6, 3d4, but nothing with a base damage that exceeds 12.
Fighters have a d10 HD type, and magicians have a d4 HD type.
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