Original D&D Discussion - Holmes combat

« Holmes combat »

Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
May 21, 2013, 9:58am

Original D&D Discussion :: Dungeons & Dragons (1971-1978) :: Holmes Basic D&D (1978) :: Holmes combat

« Page 2 of 2 Jump to page Go

Author

Topic: Holmes combat (Read 754 times)

Otto Harkaman
Level 4 Theurgist

member is offline

Sir Gawaine the son of Lot, King of Orkney

Joined: Jul 2012
Gender: Male

Posts: 117
Karma: 2

Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #15 on Sept 15, 2012, 8:55am »

Quote:

Munchkins would roam the dungeons armed with nothing but daggers, unless there is some other rule I have missed.

I thought the same thing and if you don't use the optional weapon damage, daggers do as much damage as a sword.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

Kris Kobold
Level 3 Conjurer

member is offline

Joined: Oct 2011
Gender: Male

Posts: 50
Location: Stouffville, Ontario, Canada
Karma: 6

Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #16 on Sept 15, 2012, 9:11am »

Sept 15, 2012, 12:45am, Vile wrote:

Is there a definitive list of what constitutes "light" and "heavy" weapons for the purpose of melee combat? Holmes gives daggers as light, and two-handed swords, battle axes, halberds, flails, morning stars and "most" polearms as heavy. Does this mean everything else is "medium"? What about lances and pikes, are they "medium"?

Does anyone actually use the rule of 2 attacks per round for light weapons, 1 attack every 2 rounds for heavy weapons? Munchkins would roam the dungeons armed with nothing but daggers, unless there is some other rule I have missed.

Your list of weapons looks about right to me. I wouldn't classify the non-light or non-heavy weapons as "medium," however. They are simply (normal) "weapons." It's just that some weapons are "light" and some are "heavy," if that makes sense.

That the lance and the pike are not classified as heavy weapons likely has to do with how they are used: regarding the lance, it is a weapon used mounted as part of a charge; regarding the pike, it's meant to be largely stationary, set against a charge. The weight (light v.s heavy) of these weapons is largely immaterial, since the force (and damage) comes not from a swing of the arm but by the momentum of the charge of the attacker.

As for the two attacks with a dagger making it the optimal choice for any fighting-man, this has been discussed a great many times in various places; you will find several cogent opinions both for and against. Also, you will find several work-arounds, too, (e.g., use variable weapon damage where daggers do 1-4 damage and limit two attacks to fighting-men only) It seems that the two attacks thing is a fossil from Chainmail, which (depending on whom you ask) should(n't) be excised.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

Kris Kobold

Zenopus
Level 8 Warlock

member is offline

[avatar]

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 799
Karma: 95

Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #17 on Sept 15, 2012, 12:32pm »

I believe the list of heavy weapons comes from the variable weapon damage table in OD&D Supplement I, Greyhawk, pg 15. On this table, certain weapons are asterisked as requiring 4', 5' or 6' feet space of space on each side of the wielder, or being unusable in dungeons due to length, and this group matches Holmes heavy weapons exactly except for the pike, which he may felt was covered by "pole arms". The lance is not asterisked but is labeled as "mounted lance" so perhaps not considered applicable to melee.

I call the two blows/dagger rule the "broken rule". It's been discussed many times on this board and other places, and there are many possible solutions. You can see some thoughts I had on making it work here.

I put hand axe as the other light weapon on that table. I think paleologos also uses hand axe as light. It's debatable though since it does 1-6 points of damage in Greyhawk/AD&D, and has a speed factor of 4 in AD&D versus 2 for a dagger - so as envisioned by Gary the hand axe is heavier and not quite as fast.

« Last Edit: Sept 15, 2012, 12:36pm by Zenopus »

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.”
- Holmes rulebook

Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog

Vile
Level 7 Enchanter

member is offline

Dreamscape Designer

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 521
Location: The Maze of Peril
Karma: 27

Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #18 on Sept 15, 2012, 7:45pm »

Thanks for that, I was wondering if I was overlooking something but it appears I'm not. Because I don't want to introduce additional rules into Blueholme* if I can help it, I think I'll just leave this rule out. I might do an expanded version with optional rules later, so I can put this back in with the appropriate counterbalances.

* Just to be clear, "Blueholme" is my Holmes clone, whereas "Adventures in Blueholme" is my Holmes/Pathfinder mash-up.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

The BLUEHOLME™ Project

Falconer
Level 9 Sorcerer

Cleric of OD&D
member is offline

[avatar]

OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS

Joined: Sept 2007
Gender: Male

Posts: 1,339
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 51

Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #19 on Sept 15, 2012, 9:23pm »

Sept 15, 2012, 12:32pm, Zenopus wrote:

I call the two blows/dagger rule the "broken rule". It's been discussed many times on this board and other places, and there are many possible solutions.

Yes. Sigh. It’s only a broken rule if you treat Holmes as a stand-alone ruleset, and not an introductory one. Which is a modern thought-experiment that historically was never the case.

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

Michael Falconer - Old School Star Trek Role-playing
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien

Zenopus
Level 8 Warlock

member is offline

[avatar]

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 799
Karma: 95

Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #20 on Sept 15, 2012, 9:44pm »

That's right, I forgot that rule works as written if you are using Holmes as the introduction to 1978's Knifefighters & Koboldkickers

Link to Post - Back to Top IP:

Logged

« Page 2 of 2 Jump to page Go

Click Here To Make This Board Ad-Free