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Otto Harkaman
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 Holmes combat
« Thread Started on Aug 7, 2012, 12:37pm »

I am going to update this post as people give me information and suggestions.

Here is my arrangement for Holmes combat. I think I have rearranged and done enough tiny edits that this doesn't violate copyright.


Quote:
COMBAT
Melee is the most exciting part of the game, but it must be imagined as if it were occurring in slow motion so that the effect of each blow can be worked out. When the party of adventures is attacked by several monsters, all may be involved in melee, but the hand-to-hand battles must be fought one at a time and then the result imagined as if all were going on simultaneously.
When figures are brought into position 10 scale feet (or less) apart they may engage in close combat. Combat with arrows and other missiles are based on the range of the weapon. Characters can be attacked by more than one opponent at a time; the DM should be guided by the actual placement of the figures on a paper sketch or on the table in deciding how many opponents can engage as melee starts, always keeping in mind the dimensions of the dungeon itself. One would not expect to get more than two or three figures fighting side by side in a ten foot corridor, for example.

ROUNDS OF COMBAT
There are ten "rounds" of combat per turn. Each round is ten seconds, so a combat turn is shorter than a regular turn, but results in at least as much muscular fatigue. Subject to the limitation of heavy weapons the figures exchange blows in turn until the melee is resolved. After each round of melee the players may move other characters than those engaged in actual combat into position to render assistance, etc.
MOVEMENT & FACING
Movement is usually at a sprint; an unarmored man can move 20 ft., a fully armored man 10 ft., and a fully armored, fully encumbered man 5 ft per combat round. Attacks against a figure’s flanks is modified by +1 to the attackers die roll, by +2 against the rear.

COMBAT ROUND RESOLUTION
In a combat round the attacker strikes a blow, takes a swing, or shoots/throws a missile. This is repeated for each figure in combat.
INITIATIVE
WHO GETS THE FIRST BLOW? Attackers who surprise an opponent or who approach him from behind always get the first blow. Otherwise the character with the highest dexterity strikes first. If the Dungeon Master does not know the dexterity of an attacking monster he rolls it on the spot. If dexterities are within 1 or 2 points of each other, a 6-sided die is rolled for each opponent, and the higher score gains initiative — first blow.
TO HIT
The probability of a hit is converted into a random number of 1 to 20. For which a properly marked 20-sided die is used. Combat results are based on the attacker's ability (indicated by his "level" or “hit dice”) and the defender's abilities (indicated by his "armor class"). The attacking player rolls the 20-sided dice. The die roll is read off the table for his attack capability against his opponent's armor class. If the number indicated on the tables, or greater, is scored, a hit has been made on the opponent.
If it’s a hit see Damage below. If he does not make his die roll the attack was a miss.
MISSILE FIRE
Hits with arrows and other missiles are based on the short, medium or long range of the weapon in question. If the archer is firing at long range his dice roll for a hit is one higher than the score for hits with any other weapon, and is read off the table under the opponent's armor class. At medium range the archer uses the score as shown, and at close range he adds 1.
ARMOR CLASS
The "armor class" of humanoid monsters is literally the armor they are wearing (or possibly their skin/hide!). For non-human creatures, however, it is assigned partly on this basis, with strong armor class for scales and shells, and partly on the basis of difficulty to hit. All the monsters in the monster section given later have an armor class assigned and the Dungeon Master can make up an appropriate armor class for any new ones he invents.
DAMAGE
If it’s a hit damage points are then rolled and subtracted. The attacker makes another die roll, with one 6-sided die, to see how many points of damage were done by the hit. (The more complex system used for advanced play allows for varying amounts of damage by different weapons and by various sorts of monsters.) The number of damage points scored by a monster’s hit is variable and is given in the monster section. In general, humanoid creatures and first level monsters do one six-sided die’s worth of damage per “hit” whether the hit is a sword blow, a bite, a horn gore, a clawing or whatever.
WOUNDS
Damage points are subtracted from the defender's "hit points." If hit points are reduced to zero or below, the combatant is dead. If he survives he gets to swing at his attacker. Characters who are wounded continue to strike valiantly in later rounds until they are killed or the melee ends in their favor, unless they choose to break off the combat and flee.

ENDING COMBAT
A character in melee may withdraw from combat if there is space beside or behind him to withdraw into. His opponent gets a free swing at him as he does so with an attacker bonus of +2 on the die roll, and shields do not count as protection when withdrawing. A losing combatant may offer to surrender. His opponent does not have to accept the offer, of course. Non-human monsters are often too unintelligent to consider such an offer. If an opposing figure is killed or withdraws, the attacker may advance or pursue immediately—if the player desires — or he may take some other action.


I haven't come across anything about flank or rear attacks yet, are they in Holmes or is that AD&D? I left out Light/Heavy weapons, Parry and Cover in my little synopsis just wanted to show how I was arranging things.
« Last Edit: Aug 11, 2012, 8:24am by Otto Harkaman »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #1 on Aug 7, 2012, 10:39pm »

Good start, Otto.

You actually quoted the part above about attacking from behind - the attacker wins initiative automatically despite Dex. You could also interpret the rule about fleeing as applying to attacking from behind, and give the +2 to hit/no shields bonus. Thieves also get a +4 to hit/double damage for attacks from behind (pg 12).

B2 (pg 3) adds:
-5 ft per round for fully armored, fully encumbered,
-a monster's rate is determined by dividing it's movement by 12.
(there's an error here, though, because the monster's rates should all be doubled).
-natural 20 always hits (unless silver/magic necessary), natural 1 always misses
« Last Edit: Aug 7, 2012, 10:41pm by Zenopus »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

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Otto Harkaman
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #2 on Aug 8, 2012, 7:55am »

Thanks Zenopus for all this info and clarification!! I never would have thought but for you to look in the modules for combat information.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #3 on Aug 8, 2012, 5:53pm »

Nice work Otto...

Personally I would have Combat Round Resolution before Initiative, like this:


Quote:

COMBAT ROUND RESOLUTION
In a combat round the attacker strikes a blow, takes a swing, or shoots/throws a missile. This is repeated for each figure in combat.

INITIATIVE
WHO GETS THE FIRST BLOW? Attackers who surprise an opponent or who approach him from behind always get the first blow. Otherwise the character with the highest dexterity strikes first. If the Dungeon Master does not know the dexterity of an attacking monster he rolls it on the spot. If dexterities are within 1 or 2 points of each other, a 6-sided die is rolled for each opponent, and the higher score gains initiative — first blow.

TO HIT
The probability of a hit is converted into a random number of 1 to 20. For which a properly marked 20-sided die is used. Combat results are based on the attacker's ability...


Also, regarding flank/rear attacks...

OD&D inherits the concept of a flank/rear attack adjustments from Chainmail, which promotes flank/rear attacks to the next higher troop class (CM p16). The man-to-man combat system also adjusts rear attacks by +1 (CM p25). This was translated into a +2 attack adjustment in D&D by EGG (The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter No 9 (1974): The Thief!), and also subsequently by EJH (Holmes p21, the section on withdrawing).

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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #4 on Aug 8, 2012, 8:19pm »


Aug 8, 2012, 5:53pm, waysoftheearth wrote:

Also, regarding flank/rear attacks...
OD&D inherits the concept of a flank/rear attack adjustments from Chainmail, which promotes flank/rear attacks to the next higher troop class (CM p16). The man-to-man combat system also adjusts rear attacks by +1 (CM p25). This was translated into a +2 attack adjustment in D&D by EGG (The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter No 9 (1974): The Thief!), and also subsequently by EJH (Holmes p21, the section on withdrawing).


I had forgotten these modifiers! Groovy!
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #5 on Aug 8, 2012, 8:54pm »


Aug 8, 2012, 5:53pm, waysoftheearth wrote:
Personally I would have Combat Round Resolution before Initiative.


Yes I agree makes it flows into the whole round resolution outline better. Because you are possibly adjusting initiative each round?

Thanks for the page and rule references!

I just realized I should use my first post as a living document and make my edits there so I can get feedback. A week or two ago I had really gone through and typed out the Melee/Wizard rules by Steve Jackson for Metagaming Concepts. So that is why I am a little obsessive about order at the moment. SJ did an excellent job with those rules.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #6 on Aug 9, 2012, 7:57pm »


Aug 7, 2012, 10:39pm, Zenopus wrote:
You actually quoted the part above about attacking from behind - the attacker wins initiative automatically despite Dex. You could also interpret the rule about fleeing as applying to attacking from behind, and give the +2 to hit/no shields bonus. Thieves also get a +4 to hit/double damage for attacks from behind (pg 12).

Wow - I'd actually missed that in my recent Holmes-based games...

For combats, I usually jot down all of the combatant's Dex scores from highest to lowest on a lined piece of paper, modify based on 1d6 for those within 2 points of each other, and then repeat in the same order each round.

It's not uncommon for 2 or 3 attackers to "swarm" a single defender (applies to both PCs and monsters). I typically have a pair of combatants fighting, with opportunities for additional attacks from up to 2 others, but I realize now that at least one of those free attacks should strike first in the round, not be determined by Dex score.

(By the way, does anyone allow more than 3 attackers per opponent?)

I suppose that someone faced with 2 opponents is easier to handle - the extra attack can either come directly from behind (at a cost of one round to move into position) or side-by-side (not allowing a bonus to hit, and allowing the defender to use their shield against both attackers).

I think that someone facing 3 opponents would always position themselves so that they were facing 2 of them (never allowing 2 attackers to get behind them). That way, 2 attackers would be facing the same AC and actions would be determined in order of Dex score, while the 3rd could attack at the beginning of the round with a bonus to hit from behind.

One last comment on Holmes combat, by the way, is that it's FAST. I DM'd for years by re-rolling individual initiative each round, and some combats could really drag on. We usually proceeded from left to right around the gaming table, so that by the time the players on my right were rolling initiative and attacking, the players on the left were bored stiff.

The Dex-based approach really keeps the pace fast and exciting.
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Otto Harkaman
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #7 on Aug 11, 2012, 8:19am »

I think I will put movement & facing in the description of combat rounds.


Quote:
ROUNDS OF COMBAT
There are ten "rounds" of combat per turn. Each round is ten seconds, so a combat turn is shorter than a regular turn, but results in at least as much muscular fatigue. Subject to the limitation of heavy weapons the figures exchange blows in turn until the melee is resolved. After each round of melee the players may move other characters than those engaged in actual combat into position to render assistance, etc.
MOVEMENT & FACING
Movement is usually at a sprint; an unarmored man can move 20 ft., a fully armored man 10 ft., and a fully armored, fully encumbered man 5 ft per combat round. Attacks against a figure’s flanks is +1, against the rear +2.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #8 on Aug 15, 2012, 4:46am »

Paging through a digital copy of The Arduin Grimoire - Vol 1 makes me realize how much we used this along with Holmes.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #9 on Sept 11, 2012, 9:12am »

On the subject of Holmes combat, I'm not entirely sure about the "short" combat turns as opposed to the normal 10-minute turns. What do combat turns do, exactly? I presume spell duration, potion effects and the like are all measured in "long" turns. What do the "short" turns measure?
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #10 on Sept 11, 2012, 3:37pm »


Sept 11, 2012, 9:12am, Vile wrote:
On the subject of Holmes combat, I'm not entirely sure about the "short" combat turns as opposed to the normal 10-minute turns. What do combat turns do, exactly? I presume spell duration, potion effects and the like are all measured in "long" turns. What do the "short" turns measure?


I guess its the idea that combat is hyper-activity compared to regular activity. A regular turn is 10 minutes as opposed to a combat turn which is 100 seconds broken up into combat rounds. You are also fatigued quicker and need to rest more often.

Interesting that in Gamma World written about the same time there is a whole section on fatigue.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #11 on Sept 11, 2012, 9:13pm »


Sept 11, 2012, 9:12am, Vile wrote:
On the subject of Holmes combat, I'm not entirely sure about the "short" combat turns as opposed to the normal 10-minute turns. What do combat turns do, exactly? I presume spell duration, potion effects and the like are all measured in "long" turns. What do the "short" turns measure?


Short answer is that the Holmes rulebook nowhere clarifies this!
Take a look at this thread where there's more discussion of this issue:

http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=holmes&action=display&thread=5767
« Last Edit: Sept 11, 2012, 9:18pm by Zenopus »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #12 on Sept 11, 2012, 9:24pm »


Sept 11, 2012, 3:37pm, Otto Harkaman wrote:

Sept 11, 2012, 9:12am, Vile wrote:
On the subject of Holmes combat, I'm not entirely sure about the "short" combat turns as opposed to the normal 10-minute turns. What do combat turns do, exactly? I presume spell duration, potion effects and the like are all measured in "long" turns. What do the "short" turns measure?


I guess its the idea that combat is hyper-activity compared to regular activity. A regular turn is 10 minutes as opposed to a combat turn which is 100 seconds broken up into combat rounds. You are also fatigued quicker and need to rest more often.


Yes, and you could even continue this line of reasoning to spell durations - hurried casting during combat results in spells that last a shorter length of time. So Enlargement out of combat from a 1st level M-U = 20 minutes (2 normal turns); Enlargement cast during combat = 20 rounds (200 seconds). But it gets more confusing when combat ends and time shifts back - does the spell duration shift back?

Perhaps simplest to rule that spells cast outside of combat last for the standard turns, and spells cast during combat and still in effect end when the combat ends.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #13 on Sept 12, 2012, 12:23am »


Sept 11, 2012, 9:24pm, Zenopus wrote:

Sept 11, 2012, 3:37pm, Otto Harkaman wrote:
I guess its the idea that combat is hyper-activity compared to regular activity. A regular turn is 10 minutes as opposed to a combat turn which is 100 seconds broken up into combat rounds. You are also fatigued quicker and need to rest more often.
Yes, and you could even continue this line of reasoning to spell durations - hurried casting during combat results in spells that last a shorter length of time. So Enlargement out of combat from a 1st level M-U = 20 minutes (2 normal turns); Enlargement cast during combat = 20 rounds (200 seconds). But it gets more confusing when combat ends and time shifts back - does the spell duration shift back?

Perhaps simplest to rule that spells cast outside of combat last for the standard turns, and spells cast during combat and still in effect end when the combat ends.

I think that's the approach I'll take as well, I like how that adds a bit more variety and spice to spells. As a side-effect it will probably make players think more about "powering up" before combat.
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 Re: Holmes combat
« Reply #14 on Sept 15, 2012, 12:45am »

Is there a definitive list of what constitutes "light" and "heavy" weapons for the purpose of melee combat? Holmes gives daggers as light, and two-handed swords, battle axes, halberds, flails, morning stars and "most" polearms as heavy. Does this mean everything else is "medium"? What about lances and pikes, are they "medium"?

Does anyone actually use the rule of 2 attacks per round for light weapons, 1 attack every 2 rounds for heavy weapons? Munchkins would roam the dungeons armed with nothing but daggers, unless there is some other rule I have missed.
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