b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Thread Started on May 8, 2012, 10:31am »
Hey all,
After some time mucking about with other things, I have decided to use B2 as a jumping off point for a new campaign using a house rules Holmes version of basic.
As Holmes is 1-3 levels (I have the the addendum for up to 9th when it becomes necessary) B2 seems a good fit considering most people report their groups end up about 3rd by the end of it all.
In preparation for it all, I have been reading B2 over and making some notes and revisions. The 'humanoid hotel' aspect of the caves needed some work, and I set about organizing them into alliances and rivalries and such to create some semblance of 'order' to the 'chaos'.
What struck me as I read the module over for the first time in 20+ years was the loot. Specifically, the magical loot. Money is easy to deal with (aside from the obvious 'don;t give it to them' solution). Gold has a way of growing wings and flying out of adventurers pockets as they pay high level clerics to remove curses or raise the dead or wizards to research items or legends. Training, taxes and bribery can help think the bank accounts as well.
Magic, on the other hand is a big hurdle. I will definitely be adjusting the hoard.
As an exercise in curiosity, I complied a list of the 'non-consumable' items in the Caves and surrounding areas.
Note that this list EXCLUDES:
1) anything in the Keep proper 2) Potions and Scrolls 3) The amulets the creatures wear protecting them from good and/or cleric turning
So, here is the list - complete to my knowledge
Armor:
Shield + 1 x 3 Plate mail +1 x 2 Ring of Protection +1
Wands (technically consumables, but generally fairly powerful)
Wand of Paralyzation Wand of Enemy Detection
Misc
Staff of Healing Elven Boots Snake Staff
There are also 2 cursed items, a sword -1 and a helm of alignment change.
That is 18 'permanent' items (I counted the arrows as one item.) Allowing for the wands being less than permanent, it is still 16 items.
Assuming a party of five characters (men at arms will probably be included, but tend to be paid in gold rather than magic), each character will average 3 items. Magic Users will tend to have less, as many items are weapons/armor they cannot use and the numerous scrolls available will be more to their taste. Even so, assuming an average level of 2 or 3 for the party upon completion (assuming slower advancement for those missing some battles and deaths that require new characters) that is a considerable amount of magical loot.
Given a fair bit of luck and an exhaustive search of the caves, a fighting man could leave the module at 3rd level with plate mail +1, a shield +1 and a sword +2. His cleric comrade could be likewise armored sporting both a staff of healing and a snake staff.
I can see high magic worlds where this would be of little concern, but my sense is that it is a bit too much, too soon.
Thoughts?
**Edited to fix Elven Boots (Eleven Boots was a nice typo though)
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,330 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #1 on May 8, 2012, 11:18am »
Wow, I've never seen it laid out like that! Be Thou Exalted!
However, given the probably attrition rate of characters (owlbear, ogre, undead), I don't know that I personally find it too much. Magic items may get left behind if the party needs to leave a dead companion behind, and there's no guarantee that they'll find them all, either.
Quote:
Given a fair bit of luck and an exhaustive search of the caves, a fighting man could leave the module at 3rd level with plate mail +1, a shield +1 and a sword +2. His cleric comrade could be likewise armored sporting both a staff of healing and a snake staff.
In my experience, the FM'd be more likely to leave with two of those at most, and I'd only let the cleric carry one staff at a time. (sorta the no-more-than-one-magic-ring-per-hand idea...)
You could also distribute some of the magic items into the hands of monsters, thus making it tougher for characters to get their hands on them.
In many ways, magic items are the only edge characters have at lower level, and especially if they have to deal with the cursed items, too, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #2 on May 8, 2012, 11:38am »
Good point about the probability of finding them all.
In fairness, many of the items are in use - the Minotaur used the Spear +1 and the EHP uses the snake staff and one of the plate mail suits.
Part of me just looks at a sword +2 and magical plate mail and thinks 'if you have it at 2nd or 3rd level, what is your next goal'? armor +2 and a vorpal sword? The answer is 'oh yeah!' of course , but it is a little flavor issue I like in my game.
To each his own, naturally!
Perhaps I'll leave the loot as written and see how the intrepid adventurers fare. I'll let you all know how they make out (or how messily they all die depending on how it all goes!)
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 171 Karma: 16
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #3 on May 8, 2012, 12:19pm »
I agree that the FM probably won't end up with all that. The caves are freakin' deadly and players (at least mine) tend to forget to search for treasure and items after big fights...they end up missing a lot.
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 505 Karma: 15
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #4 on May 8, 2012, 6:01pm »
I always found the treasure to be pretty high in TSR modules. In our AD&D campaign at one point, we did a magic item reset, everyone stripped a bunch of magic items from their characters. The campaign was run mostly from modules.
Joined: Jul 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 561 Karma: 17
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #5 on May 8, 2012, 8:39pm »
Come on plate mail+1 adds 5% to your defense....5%. in CHAINMAIL it wasn't magic unless it was +3!
Elven boots (and cloaks), in my house rules are what elves require in order to grt their sneak and hide ability (tolkien and CHAINMAIL both confirm this. So, I start elf pc's with both. not a big deal generally.
I thinking you are freaking out over minor baubles. Elven henchmen will want be paid in magic items. Every hero-1 (3rd level) should have a shot at a magic sword as that specifically called out as being their classes special ability! 3rd level wiz gets spells and a hero gets a talking sword...them's the rules!
The fighter with magic plate and magic weapons is going to get less gold when the party splits up the loot, which translates to fewer hirelings, henchmen, horses and running around money. It all balances out.
Risk for reward. If you are going to gyp your players on rewards, you better fudge dice in their favor in combat. A +1 or +2 sword that rolled well for intelligence could last a hero his whole career--how cool is that?
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
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Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #6 on May 11, 2012, 3:09pm »
FYI, from your description I’m guessing you have the Moldvay-compatible version of B2. It might be worthwhile to make sure you have the original, Holmes-compatible version of B2. The former has the TSR “face logo” while the latter has the TSR “wizard logo”.
In the original version, the gelatinous cube contains a wand of fireballs. Awesome!
Definitely join the others in suggesting you not gimp the treasure. The module is ***HARD***. Low level characters in Holmes are ***WEAK*** (they don’t already have +3 to hit and -3 to AC due to strength and dexterity; the MU has one spell; the Cleric has none). Both factors are balanced out in B2 by magical treasures which make the game rewarding and fun. That is really important, because, in this module, only the players’ own motivation will drive the game.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,330 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #7 on May 11, 2012, 3:47pm »
Quote:
I thinking you are freaking out over minor baubles.
Okay, that made me laugh...
Quote:
Every hero-1 (3rd level) should have a shot at a magic sword as that specifically called out as being their classes special ability! 3rd level wiz gets spells and a hero gets a talking sword...them's the rules!
It has never occurred to me to look at it that way---once again, coop, you Thou Art Exalted for outside-the-treasure-chest thinking!
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #8 on May 29, 2012, 9:44am »
As always...use what works for your group.....just make sure everybody's on the same page!
If you and your players are all cool with a low-magic; "gritty" kind of campaign; then lowering/modifying the treasure is no big deal. On the other hand....if they're expecting "high-risk = high reward"; then I wouldn't change anything.
One thing that I think gets lost with a lot of Old-school published modules is that they were almost always written for "by the book" rules following. In AD&D; this meant a LOT of gold and treasure because levelling up took training; which cost money. This obviously doesn't apply to Basic; but I just thought I'd throw that out there!
One thing that I like to do with low level parties if to give them magic items that are either "conditional" or use charges. This also has the benefit of making permanent magic items like Swords +2 more appreciated.
Examples would be wands/staves/rings that use charges; or weapons that are +1/+2 vs. whatever (or +1/+3, you get the idea); or armor or shields that don't have a + but provide "Fire Resistance" or something like that.
Just my two cents! Best of luck with your game and let us know how it goes!
FYI, from your description I’m guessing you have the Moldvay-compatible version of B2. It might be worthwhile to make sure you have the original, Holmes-compatible version of B2. The former has the TSR “face logo” while the latter has the TSR “wizard logo”.
On that note, has anyone ever made a list of the differences between the two? You know, like Zenopus's seminal treatise on the differences in the Blue Book printings?
My B2 came with the Moldvay boxed set, and I'd dearly love to know what was different in the Holmes version.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,555 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 152
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #10 on Sept 24, 2012, 11:51am »
The Acaeum is the answer for pretty much any question along these lines. If you are not familiar with those forums, this is where one would go for reasonable answers regarding collectibles, forgeries, and reliability of eBay sellers specializing in hobby materials.
I've linked the page that discusses the various editions of B1 and B2. Even if it isn't exactly what you need, the information is a start.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,341 Location: Chicago, IL Karma: 51
Re: b2 and Holmes - kicking the tires « Reply #12 on Sept 24, 2012, 12:57pm »
Wow, the revision is worse (more lame) than I thought!
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
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plate mail+1 adds 5% to your defense....5%. in CHAINMAIL it wasn't magic unless it was +3!![[avatar]](http://mux.net/~ulmo/ThorinII.jpg "[avatar]")
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