Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Thread Started on Aug 31, 2011, 9:54am »
Hello everybody,
I was wondering what do you all make of paragraph on p. 3 (second paragraph beneath the Using the Combat Tables header) where Gygax wrote that higher level characters should get a +1 to hit?
How can that idea be addressed when expanding the Basic Set beyond level 3? Is it implied that a 8th Level Fighter should receive an additional +1 to hit?
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #1 on Aug 31, 2011, 11:39am »
Coincidentally, I am working on a page called "Hints for higher levels". It's still in progress, but here's what I have so far about combat:
COMBAT
Fighters: “After they reach the fourth level of experience they also increase their ability to get hits…” (pg 6/6) Combat Melee Table: “For characters over 3rd level consult table in AD&D” (pg 18/18) [The above are from the Holmes Basic rulebook]
The first print of B2 The Keep on the Borderlands, written by Gygax for the Holmes rules, gives further advice: "A bonus of +1 should be added to the "to hit" die roll of high level characters, for they have more training and experience in fighting. This bonus will apply to Fighters of 4th level or above, to Clerics and Thieves of 5th level or above, and to Magic-Users of 6th level or above" (pg 3).
These class-based level groupings match the Attack Matrix 1 from Men & Magic (OD&D), but the bonus is +2 rather than +1 (B/X D&D is the same). The Curate, a 5th level cleric, is given the +1 bonus (pg 11). However, the Castellan, a 6th level fighter, is given a +2 bonus to hit due to his high level (pg 12).
In the Bugbear Lair (Area H of the Caves of Chaos), the imprisoned 4th level Hero with 18 strength gets a "+2 on hit probability and damage due to his great strength and level" (pg 19). If going by Greyhawk he would actually gain a +4 to hit (+2 for level, +2 for strength) and a +3 to damage, or even more if his strength was exceptional.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #2 on Aug 31, 2011, 3:30pm »
If I am not mistaken, isn't there a pamphlet by Professor Thork called "Classic 77 Expanded Rules" where he addresses this issue for upper level characters?
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #3 on Aug 31, 2011, 10:08pm »
Sure - every "expansion" has to deal with to-hit improvements for higher levels characters. Looking at Holmes77, only Fighting Men increase their to-hit scores above level 3, and they get a +2 bonus as the first increase, so I don't think Thork was trying to keep his rule set in line with B2.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #4 on Aug 31, 2011, 10:52pm »
I wouldn't hold to the B2 guidance too slavishly - I think Gygax was just trying to provide some approximation of higher levels without too much complication.
But, taking the above information, you could extrapolate the following rules:
(I put the Str bonuses in line with Greyhawk for Str 13-16, and in line with B2 for Str 18)
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
I wouldn't hold to the B2 guidance too slavishly - I think Gygax was just trying to provide some approximation of higher levels without too much complication.
But, taking the above information, you could extrapolate the following rules:
(I put the Str bonuses in line with Greyhawk for Str 13-16, and in line with B2 for Str 18)
Brilliant work Zenopus! I think that it is better to look at B2 for guidance than AD&D. B2 was written in conjuction with the Blue Book, so in my opinion, it can be seen as a part of the Basic D&D game that Holmes presented. Also, adding AD&D to the mix can only complicate things. Does the theoretical game that includes these advancements place a level cap on the characters? Would a Level 15 M-U add the same amount of dice as a 7th level counterpart?
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #6 on Sept 3, 2011, 10:43am »
You're welcome. I agree with respect to AD&D. Also, I'd always look to OD&D first over AD&D, since Holmes used the OD&D rules to create the set. There aren't many other clues for combat at higher levels.
The Holmes rulebook says: “There is no theoretical limit to the number of levels a character may progress (15th level fighting man, 14th level wizard, etc.), but only the first three levels are covered in this book” (pg 11). This is in line with the original rules (and is a revision of a sentence on page 18 of Men & Magic), so you could keep increasing combat prowess to levels 15+ as in OD&D.
As I noted above, the to hit bonus from B2 doesn't match the OD&D rules. OD&D gives Fighting Men a +2 or +3 for every three levels. For the B2 progression, we could extrapolate a +1 for every two levels after 3rd. This would result in a Fighting Man hitting AC9 on a 4 at level 15. This is a slower increase than in OD&D, where the same Fighting Man would hit AC9 on a 1.
In parallel, you could have Clerics & Thieves increase in blocks of three, and Magic-Users in blocks of four.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #7 on Sept 3, 2011, 2:55pm »
Also, is it me or did Holmes ignore the high Strength bonus to hit introduced in Supp.1 Greyhawk? That, along with the progression hinted at in B2, would indicate that maybe Holmes wanted weaker characters than oD&D and AD&D. Maybe his vision of the game involved characters that are more competent than the normal man, but not by much. At least that's what it looks like to me.
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
Also, is it me or did Holmes ignore the high Strength bonus to hit introduced in Supp.1 Greyhawk? That, along with the progression hinted at in B2, would indicate that maybe Holmes wanted weaker characters than oD&D and AD&D. Maybe his vision of the game involved characters that are more competent than the normal man, but not by much. At least that's what it looks like to me.
What do you guys think?
You may be correct, P-halfling.
Perhaps Holmes wanted heroes made of men, not heroes made of stats.
Thus, a "hero" is a normal guy who does something extraordinary and succeeds.
Also, is it me or did Holmes ignore the high Strength bonus to hit introduced in Supp.1 Greyhawk? That, along with the progression hinted at in B2, would indicate that maybe Holmes wanted weaker characters than oD&D and AD&D. Maybe his vision of the game involved characters that are more competent than the normal man, but not by much. At least that's what it looks like to me.
Leaving out GH Strength bonus in the rulebook was a Holmes choice, whereas the B2 hints are from Gygax, so I don't think you can conclude much based on those together, further because Gygax did include a strength bonus (though reduced) for the 4th level Hero.
All of the strength bonuses in GH apply only to Fighting Men (and only based on unadjusted strength), and are in a big, complicated table (particularly with the exceptional strength), so my guess is Holmes left it out just to simplify things for beginners. He also left out the Dex AC adjustments for Fighting Men from GH. Most of the ability score adjustments in Holmes are from Men & Magic, pg 11. The only one that is changed in view of Greyhawk is the Con HP bonus, which actually is a change to make stronger, rather than weaker characters.
One other omission from Greyhawk that does make Holmes more deadly is the lack of variable weapon damage for characters. Monsters get the variable damage from Greyhawk, but not the players.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Leaving out GH Strength bonus in the rulebook was a Holmes choice, whereas the B2 hints are from Gygax, so I don't think you can conclude much based on those together, further because Gygax did include a strength bonus (though reduced) for the 4th level Hero.
Maybe I'm looking for coherence where there is none. It might very well be that Holmes and Gygax were each "doing their own thing," so whatever is hinted at in B2 might now necessarily match with Holmes' work.
Thank you once again for your work Zenopus! I'm printing out your tables and taping them to one of the covers of my Holmes Blue Book.
Playing: Yton, A halfling troubadour in an Eberron (Savage Worlds) campaign; Hans a freelance duelist in a Runequest 2nd/3rd edition campaign; The Vociferous Bastard from Innsmouth, a scoundrel in Mushgnome's Chainmail Carcosa.
Maybe I'm looking for coherence where there is none. It might very well be that Holmes and Gygax were each "doing their own thing," so whatever is hinted at in B2 might now necessarily match with Holmes' work.
This sounds like a reasonable assessment. I this instance, I do prefer Gary's methods for str bonuses and improved fighting ability for fighters.
.......
Zenopus, have you ever tried to contact any of Dr. Holmes' children (the son he gamed with, specifically) or other players of his? It would be interesting to learn whether he actually used methods such as the Gygax str modifiers in his home game, or other adjustments that may not have made their way into the rules set he edited; or perhaps other alterations or clarifications that came about later in play.
Re: Bonus to Hit mentioned in KotBL « Reply #13 on Sept 4, 2011, 8:16pm »
Quote:
Maybe I'm looking for coherence where there is none. It might very well be that Holmes and Gygax were each "doing their own thing," so whatever is hinted at in B2 might now necessarily match with Holmes' work.
I think in B2 Gygax did a good job keeping the additional rules in line with the Basic Set, but it doesn't appear Holmes had any input. Generally it's hard to tell what rules in the Basic set Holmes actually used in his own OD&D campaign versus what he decided would make a good introductory set of rules.
Thank you once again for your work Zenopus! I'm printing out your tables and taping them to one of the covers of my Holmes Blue Book.
That's great to hear! Here's a slightly expanded version. The original table in the Holmes rulebook only goes to AC2, but B2 expands the AC list to include AC1, and also mentions AC0 right underneath this (top of page 3), so I expanded the table (this also gives you a THAC0, if you are into those).
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
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