Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,341 Location: Chicago, IL Karma: 51
Re: Playing past the 3rd level « Reply #2 on Jul 22, 2011, 11:12am »
There are a few of schools of thought here:
1) Some think of the OD&D White Box as the “Expert Set” to the Holmes Basic Set. This arguably provides the most congruous experience.
2) The Cook/Marsh Expert Set includes rules for using it with Holmes Basic, so it is an “official” expansion.
3) The Holmes rules themselves suggest transitioning to AD&D for higher level play, so that’s another “official” route.
#1 and #2 allow you, if desired, to retain Holmes as your core players’ book, perhaps along with a minimalistic printout of advancement tables and spells, while only the referee needs to consult the added books. #3 usually means the PHB replaces Holmes as the core players’ book, and there is quite a bit (by old school standards) of actual conversion work necessary at that point.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
1) Some think of the OD&D White Box as the “Expert Set” to the Holmes Basic Set. This arguably provides the most congruous experience.
Agreed. Holmes edited the Basic rulebook from the original OD&D books + supplements, and none of the AD&D books had been published at the time Holmes first appeared in 1977 (~Sep), so OD&D is the most natural expansion. The few pre-AD&D bits (mostly M-U spells) were added by Gygax & Co. They also added the references to AD&D, but these could all equally refer to OD&D (they may have even just added the word "ADVANCED" wherever Holmes wrote "DUNGEONS & DRAGONS"). TSR was anticipating publication of AD&D and wanted to steer folks from the introductory set to the new rules.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,341 Location: Chicago, IL Karma: 51
Re: Playing past the 3rd level « Reply #4 on Jul 22, 2011, 2:23pm »
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Very cool little files, though no doubt many Holmes aficionados will want to make their own containing exactly what they want in it.
Some of the other files I have seen seem to replace rather than supplement Holmes.
Yes, I list them all because there's no one correct version. My site is sort of meta-Holmes.
I don't really distinguish between replacements vs supplements. You can use OD&D or AD&D as a supplement or a replacement, and the same with any of the modern expansions.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
As far as I can tell, Holmes used the 1974 rules plus Supplement I: GREYHAWK for his edit, and he didn't use the other three supplements at all.
Yes, he said in his FRPG book that GREYHAWK was the most useful, so I think he considered the other supplements, but decided that the material was beyond the scope of an introductory set. He did include some references to this material so it was not ignored completely or excluded as a possibility. The Holmes rulebook mentions monks and assassins (BLACKMOOR) and druids and psionics (ELDRITCH WIZARDRY) on page 7. Demons are mentioned three times in the text, including a note that they are highly magic resistant (pg 14), which is from EW. Page 22 references GODS, DEMI-GODS & HEROES by name. Dexterity for initiative may have been influenced by the system in Eldritch Wizardry. CHAINMAIL is even referenced in the entry for Giants.
"Story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of an older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.” - Holmes rulebook
Zenopus Archives - Holmes Basic D&D - website & blog
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
OD&D, Middle-earth, Star Trek TOS
Joined: Sept 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,341 Location: Chicago, IL Karma: 51
Re: Playing past the 3rd level « Reply #8 on Jul 23, 2011, 1:17pm »
Interesting to note that TSR product lists on the back of the Holmes book (and other contemporary lists such as on the last page of the AD&D books, IIRC) lists Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes as under the general D&D category and not under the specific OD&D category (which lists the OD&D box and the first three supplements).
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
As far as I can tell, Holmes used the 1974 rules plus Supplement I: GREYHAWK for his edit, and he didn't use the other three supplements at all.
Yes, he said in his FRPG book that GREYHAWK was the most useful, so I think he considered the other supplements, but decided that the material was beyond the scope of an introductory set. He did include some references to this material so it was not ignored completely or excluded as a possibility. The Holmes rulebook mentions monks and assassins (BLACKMOOR) and druids and psionics (ELDRITCH WIZARDRY) on page 7. Demons are mentioned three times in the text, including a note that they are highly magic resistant (pg 14), which is from EW. Page 22 references GODS, DEMI-GODS & HEROES by name. Dexterity for initiative may have been influenced by the system in Eldritch Wizardry. CHAINMAIL is even referenced in the entry for Giants.
1) Some think of the OD&D White Box as the “Expert Set” to the Holmes Basic Set. This arguably provides the most congruous experience.
2) The Cook/Marsh Expert Set includes rules for using it with Holmes Basic, so it is an “official” expansion.
3) The Holmes rules themselves suggest transitioning to AD&D for higher level play, so that’s another “official” route.
#1 and #2 allow you, if desired, to retain Holmes as your core players’ book, perhaps along with a minimalistic printout of advancement tables and spells, while only the referee needs to consult the added books. #3 usually means the PHB replaces Holmes as the core players’ book, and there is quite a bit (by old school standards) of actual conversion work necessary at that point.
I would say that in this day and age, if you're playing Holmes in the first place, you're looking for a slightly different experience than what other editions give. So with that in mind:
OD&D White Box + Greyhawk: no point. You can just start play with that ruleset at 1st level.
Cook/Marsh Expert set: no point. You can just start play with Moldvay Basic at 1st level.
Transition to AD&D: no point. Just start play at 1st level with AD&D.
So to me that leaves 2 other possibilities:
1) Levels cap at 3rd. Higher levels are either not possible, or only for NPCs.
2) Go with one of the fan-made Holmes expansions.
Personally, I'd go with this hodge-podge for fun: Holmes Basic rulebook Meepo's expansion to level 9 (only one I'm really familiar with) Ready Ref Sheets, esp. for weapon priority initiative system and weapon damage, and I'd be half-tempted to use the 2d6 chainmail attack system Unknown Gods
Transition to AD&D: no point. Just start play at 1st level with AD&D.
The point would be that AD&D is too much for a newbie DM and newbie players to absorb. They need an introductory rules set. Speaking from experience as a formerly-newbie DM, Holmes fulfills that function admirably. Though I am no longer a newbie DM, I still use it for the first three levels of my AD&D campaigns if the players are new.
OD&D White Box + Greyhawk: no point. You can just start play with that ruleset at 1st level.
I own 5 copies of the Holmes Basic Game Book, and can easily get more. I own only 1 copy of the notoriously expensive—and notoriously obtuse—LBBs. So the point is to put a readily-available—and readily-understandable—Holmes book in the hands of each player while the DM goes ahead and runs OD&D.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,558 Karma: 87
Re: Playing past the 3rd level « Reply #12 on Aug 9, 2011, 10:26pm »
When I'm playing Gygaxian D&D nowadays, I prefer the 1974 rules plus Supplement I: GREYHAWK. I'd give the Holmes rulebook to players new to D&D, while using the 1974-75 rules myself. So Holmes would kind of be an inexact explanation of the "real" rules written in 1974-75.
I own 5 copies of the Holmes Basic Game Book, and can easily get more. I own only 1 copy of the notoriously expensive—and notoriously obtuse—LBBs. So the point is to put a readily-available—and readily-understandable—Holmes book in the hands of each player while the DM goes ahead and runs OD&D.
That's fair, although photocopying the relevant pages out of the OD&D books may work too.
Joined: Dec 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 235 Karma: 19
Re: Playing past the 3rd level « Reply #14 on Aug 11, 2011, 7:30am »
Quote:
I would say that in this day and age, if you're playing Holmes in the first place, you're looking for a slightly different experience than what other editions give. So with that in mind:
OD&D White Box + Greyhawk: no point. You can just start play with that ruleset at 1st level.
Cook/Marsh Expert set: no point. You can just start play with Moldvay Basic at 1st level.
Transition to AD&D: no point. Just start play at 1st level with AD&D.
So to me that leaves 2 other possibilities:
1) Levels cap at 3rd. Higher levels are either not possible, or only for NPCs.
2) Go with one of the fan-made Holmes expansions.
Personally, I'd go with this hodge-podge for fun: Holmes Basic rulebook Meepo's expansion to level 9 (only one I'm really familiar with) Ready Ref Sheets, esp. for weapon priority initiative system and weapon damage, and I'd be half-tempted to use the 2d6 chainmail attack system Unknown Gods
The Moldvay/Expert rules are actually very compatible with Holmes and this would retain the simplicity of the Holmes game. Plus, these abound on the Net--if you already own the Holmes rules, you can pick up the Expert book for pennies on the dollar--I got a near mint condition for less than $5.
I really think it is the best bet for playing the higher levels, you only need the one other book.
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