Joined: Jun 2012 Gender: Female Posts: 119 Karma: 9
Re: So called save or suck spells « Reply #15 on Aug 27, 2012, 11:46am »
You certainly can - but I think that the loss of a turn goes a long way to explain why "save or suck" is unpopular.
If this poses a problem at your table - which will depend, of course, on your players - there are solutions: As has already been suggested, you could let each of them play several characters. You could modify the saving throw system such that a slept or held character can make a roll each turn to wake up rather than blowing the save and being out until further notice.
Look, we all know that the stakes of a decision are what give it weight; if there were no consequences for a misstep, surely the game would be much less fun to play. But when an in-game consequence (like falling asleep or walking into a spiderweb or whatever) is articulated to the real-world consequence of not being able to play the game, that can be a pretty frustrating circumstance, and one that (in my experience) often leads to diminished attention from the player in question. I think the game is best when everybody is "in;" "save or suck" effects that remove a character from play, even temporarily, create a social problem.
...not an insurmountable one, of course, and maybe not even a serious one if your players are all extremely serious, focused people. Sometimes mine are not.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: So called save or suck spells « Reply #16 on Aug 27, 2012, 12:24pm »
Two things.
First, I think PART of the problem is how long combat takes in later editions. In my NYC OD&D game, I don't think a single combat went over five minutes, including things like three ghouls or a 4th level cleric with 2 retainers and 3 hobgoblins. If you're out of combat for 5 minutes it's not too bad. If you're out of combat for the rest of a 45 minute combat, yeah, that can suck.
Second, at the risk of sounding like an irascible, flatulent old grognard (Oh wait... I AM!), a sizeable contingent of players these days have a d**n strong sense of entitlement. They basically want to win all the time, and if anything bad happens to their character they are "DEPROTAGONIZED!!!1!" and that's bad.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Joined: Oct 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 1,558 Karma: 87
Re: So called save or suck spells « Reply #18 on Aug 27, 2012, 2:37pm »
In my experience, old-school D&D is fun both WITH save-or-die and save-or-suck effects, and WITHOUT. I don't think either their presence or absence is necessary to a great D&D game.
Joined: Jun 2012 Gender: Female Posts: 119 Karma: 9
Re: So called save or suck spells « Reply #19 on Aug 27, 2012, 3:36pm »
Totally. Let me disclaim that as a player, save or die/suck effects don't really faze me - and why should they? My favorite kind of D&D is the kind where the most time-consuming part of character creation is rolling on the B/X Headgear chart. To me, that's one of the coolest things about old-style D&D; the system is so light (and the authority of the DM so sweeping) that the relationship between in-game time and table time can be as fluid as necessary.
Re: So called save or suck spells « Reply #21 on Aug 27, 2012, 11:36pm »
Save or Die (or Save or Suck) spells are mostly a bugaboo in 3.X, especially compared to earlier editions, due to saving throws not scaling well at higher levels and it being easier for spellcasters to do their thing without getting disrupted due to the Concentration skill. Additionally, most monsters have a lot more HP than than their earlier counterparts, making direct damage spells relatively weaker - Fireball and Lightning Bolt are some of the weakest 3rd level spells in 3.X.
First, I think PART of the problem is how long combat takes in later editions. In my NYC OD&D game, I don't think a single combat went over five minutes, including things like three ghouls or a 4th level cleric with 2 retainers and 3 hobgoblins. If you're out of combat for 5 minutes it's not too bad. If you're out of combat for the rest of a 45 minute combat, yeah, that can suck.
Second, at the risk of sounding like an irascible, flatulent old grognard (Oh wait... I AM!), a sizeable contingent of players these days have a d**n strong sense of entitlement. They basically want to win all the time, and if anything bad happens to their character they are "DEPROTAGONIZED!!!1!" and that's bad.
Another thing that adds to the unthinkable horror of getting knocked out of action is the difficulty and time required to generate a new character and keep playing.
If it takes hours sitting around with a pile of splatbooks just to make a new dude then losing one is too horrible to contemplate.
Screw that noise. Just roll yer stats choose a class, buy stuff and get to playing.
Joined: Jun 2012 Gender: Female Posts: 119 Karma: 9
Re: So called save or suck spells « Reply #23 on Sept 14, 2012, 1:30pm »
"Screw that noise" indeed, and yet: Character generation replete with options and possibilities remains an appealing option for lots of gamers. For them, I think, generating a character is playing - and moreover, it's a kind of playing they can do away from the table, by themselves. I wonder if it isn't a symptom of the difficulties one faces in coordinating a bunch of busy people's schedules? Certainly I sympathize with players who yearn for a way to "play D&D" without herding a bunch of cats every week.
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