Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #30 on Aug 13, 2012, 12:54pm »
Jon, I owe you an apology or at least regrets.
I was sent a release to sign to allow you to use my partial Greyhawk map. I read it and did not completely understand it. Unfortunately, between final papers, graduation, lack of funds, and moving twice, I never did get a chance to sit down with somebody competent.
I'm sorry I couldn't get my act together. It had nothing to do with you or your project, it's just that I won't sign a document I don't understand.
When we bought our house I thought the closing agent was going to spontaneously combust. She has scheduled half an hour and it took over three hours because I read ever piece of paper they wanted me to sign.
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #31 on Aug 13, 2012, 1:22pm »
No need for an apology. I really can't speak for my lawyers and clearances people, or why they let me use some things and not others (let me tell you, this was like a year of my life working that out), but that image was eventually cleared for the book, and it's in there. I really wanted to use an authentic map of the era as an example of player-drawn dungeon maps rather than just scrawling something myself. Hard to do better than a Greyhawk map.
but that image was eventually cleared for the book,
For my own information what is the process for a piece like the Greyhawk map or the Grand Kingdom map to be cleared?
I noticed that some pieces had permissions printed in the front section and others didn't.
At the risk of giving a very unhelpful answer, I'd say the process is that you have a lawyer and a professional clearances person do this for you. This is not something that I feel qualified to answer myself, and I get the sense this is not a thing you want to dabble in as an amateur. There are lots of factors relating to copyright law, to fair use, to tons of other things.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 478 Karma: 37
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #34 on Aug 13, 2012, 2:38pm »
Jon,
I'm really, really glad. It wasn't that I didn't like the idea, believe me, it's just I didn't fully understand some of the clauses in the release and didn't get a chance to talk to a pro. You mentioned how complicated that is. I was just nervous that somehow I could wind up promising to not talk about this adventure!
Again, this is **NOT** about you and your work specifically, but my dear departed Grandfather telling me over and over "Never sign ANYTHING you don't understand."
I am delighted beyond measure that you were able to use that bit of map, and I am delighted beyond measure that sometime somebody scanned Gary's "The Magician's Ring" writeup about that very adventure and it's available on line.
Last time I saw Rob Kuntz we talked about this, in fact. I was a little grumpy after that adventure (I was sixteen and not good at laughing at myself). Rob reminded me that when I saw him at school that next Monday, I said, "You guys were right, that is really pretty funny."
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 696 Location: Wichita, Kansas, USA Karma: 27
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #35 on Aug 13, 2012, 10:19pm »
Had I known you were looking for other Greyhawk maps, Jon, I'm sure we could have worked something out with Rob for the levels I have. Something to consider for the next edition: a peek behind the DM's map, as well as Mike's example of the players' maps
I must protest bitterly that my aircraft still has not been painted red.
Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #36 on Aug 15, 2012, 7:50pm »
My copy arrived today and I've hardly put it down (well, in between running after kids and wife).
This is exemplary, sober, even handed research. There's a lot to talk about, think about, and expand upon. There's a ton of info, and not much to quibble with. I'm sure I'll have a few complaints, for example, I think Jon reads too much into CHAINMAIL, seeing foreshadowings and influences that are best explained through other currents, but this is a fairly trivial and the wealth of information allows one to see those other possibilities.
Without doubt, this book will be the starting point for any serious discussion of the origin of our hobby.
I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the Kindle version, but I'm wondering if:
A. It has a fully hyper-linked ToC, and
B. If the K-version has footnotes as well, or were they reformatted into linked back-of-the-book notes?
I still love real books enough that I have to weigh these details carefully...
I'm freaking excited to start reading...
I do read some kinds of books on kindle - mostly novels or plays I don't care much about and don't care to keep. Non-fiction books I plan to keep I always buy in their physical form. I like to be able to have multiple bookmarks, postits and hold the book open to several pages while flipping back and forth. Just try that with a kindle book!
I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the Kindle version, but I'm wondering if:
A. It has a fully hyper-linked ToC, and
B. If the K-version has footnotes as well, or were they reformatted into linked back-of-the-book notes?
A. Yes. B. Linked back-of-the-book notes. With a book with this many footnotes, many of which are pretty interesting, this is kind of a drawback. It also breaks the "sync to farthest page" read feature of the Kindle.
Otherwise the Kindle version is perfectly fine, including images. I just finished the book in that format.
I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the Kindle version, but I'm wondering if:
A. It has a fully hyper-linked ToC, and
B. If the K-version has footnotes as well, or were they reformatted into linked back-of-the-book notes?
I still love real books enough that I have to weigh these details carefully...
I'm freaking excited to start reading. ..
A) Yes
B) The foot notes are doubly linked. You can click on the number, read the footnote, and click on the number again and go back. This works better using touch where I can use the finger rather than the cursor switch of the various e-ink kindles.
Joined: Jan 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 2,330 Location: New Hope, MN Karma: 93
Re: _Playing at the World_ and Domesday Book #1 « Reply #41 on Aug 16, 2012, 9:13am »
Awesome. Thanks, guys!
I actually like that note structure on the Kindle, and I've got a Kindle Fire, so I don't have to worry about the cursor switch (which I think would drive me crazy...)
My copy arrived today and I've hardly put it down (well, in between running after kids and wife).
This is exemplary, sober, even handed research. There's a lot to talk about, think about, and expand upon. There's a ton of info, and not much to quibble with. I'm sure I'll have a few complaints, for example, I think Jon reads too much into CHAINMAIL, seeing foreshadowings and influences that are best explained through other currents, but this is a fairly trivial and the wealth of information allows one to see those other possibilities.
Without doubt, this book will be the starting point for any serious discussion of the origin of our hobby.
I'm imagine Jon would appreciate you posting this as a review on Amazon.
........ If there are historical points that are actually wrong, I definitely want to know that.
If I ever do a later edition I'm sure I'll be much more concerned about the latter errors than the former. I do hope that the release of this book will encourage research and tease out more sources that I didn't have the opportunity to see. Especially in the age of the Internet, a book can't be the last word - but I'll think I succeeded if the overall narrative and the big ideas stick, for a while, and if I manage to convince fans of games to be more skeptical and demand more documentary evidence before they accept a version of events.
In that spirit .....
“Given that Arneson….. had only an inspirational influence over the production of the original three booklets… “ page 573;footnote 165
Well, this is demonstrably inaccurate. I suppose, if there is one general criticism of what I feel is a truly outstanding book, it is that Jon has taken to heart a little too uncritically the version of events regarding the writing process of D&D most enshrined in popular knowledge. The documents themselves belie it. I’ve gone through a lot of this in the history section of the BTPbD analysis paper (download here: http://odd74.proboards.com/index.cgi?boa....ead=7199&page=1 ) but to recap a bit:
The 3lbb’s, and presumably manuscript C contains material found in draft form in the FFC, and contains several pieces of credited artwork from Arneson which is nearly certain to have not been included in Manuscript A, and is therefore itself evidence of collaborative communication between authors. In particular there is the castle construction drawing in 1st print 3lbb’s, which is undeniably Arnesons, with his handwriting all over it.
Arguably, much of the correspondence material is undateable, and so could have been sent to Gygax in the weeks before he produced Manuscript B (leaving aside for the moment that the same material is also absent from BTPbD), but the magic swords ”Matrix” section in the FFC, clinches the continuing collaboration issue. As discussed in the BTPbD analysis paper, and various web posts I’ve left over the years, the complexity and unorthodox rule variations in “Matrix”, and use in places of identical or near identical wording, unquestionably pegs it as the draft from which the same magic swords section of the 3lbb’s was edited - a section that comprises 3 pages. But more to the point, the FFC Matrix section dates itself by “Roll appropriate number of die on Spell table in Magic section of rules” (1977:69). Therefore there must have been a rules manuscript in existence. Therefore the FFC Matrix section must terminus post quem manuscript B. However we know the terminus ante quem must be before 1st print D&D because of this statement under HOLY SWORDS “If the roll indicates no spell (i.e. such as a 5 on a level 4 curate spell…” (1977:70)
Since there are 6 level 4 cleric (“curate”) spells in 1st print D&D the example can only be understood to refer to a rules manuscript with less than 5 level 4 cleric spells. As it happens, BTPbD has only 4 level 4 cleric spells, and given that BTPbD was a revision of B, it is probable that the “Magic section of rules”, referred to a Magic section of Manuscript B. In summary, even subsequent to Gygax Manuscript B, Arneson did in fact continue to supply rules and information which Gygax edited into Dungeond & Dragons. Arneson’s role in the creation of D&D was not limited to running a one shot game and mailing a single packet of jumbled notes. There was, at least early on in the process an involved level of contribution.
Moving from fact to the realm of informed speculation, we could also consider the contribution derived from the contents of Manuscript A itself. I doubt it exists any longer, but, as recalled by Rob Kuntz, its contents resembled the rules of Strategos N. In other words it contained charts and formula, which is exactly what we would expect from Arneson. Among them was almost certainly the wilderness encounter tables, the evasion table, the “alternate” combat system, the turn undead table, “ability scores” experience tables, treasure tables and equipment lists and probably the prime requisite experience adjustment table. There was almost certainly very little that Gygax didn’t use or rework. Given the approximate page length of Manuscript B at 50 pages and assuming the most conservative page count of Manuscript A at 16 pages, we should expect about 1/3 (16/50) of the content of Manuscript B to have derived directly from that of Manuscript A. (For more of my thoughts on some of Arneson’s rules contributions to D&D, see this post http://boggswood.blogspot.com/2012/02/contibutions-from-other-guy-dave.html )
None of this is to take anything away from Arneson’s complaint, which Jon has done an excellent job of detailing as never before, that there was a “breakdown in communication”. My contention is that this breakdown occurred sometime around the production of Manuscript C. The inclusion in 1st print (and very probably in C) of the Arneson correspondence material allows no other explanation. I seriously wonder if Arneson ever saw manuscript C, given the existence and obscurity of BtPbD, and I suspect that Dave was unaware of Gygax’s intent to publish until it was a fiat accompli.
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