crusssdaddy Level 5 Thaumaturgist member is offline
Joined: Nov 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 329 Karma: 20
Re: Evil Party? « Thread Started on May 9, 2012, 11:28am »
I'm a big fan of the Witch Elves of Warhammer fame -- that seems a natural path for the princesses.
I think the key for you is to find the balance where you can provide suitably indulgent scenarios that allow your players to get their evil on, without tipping over into topics that provoke intrusion of real-life qualms, i.e. the session grinds to a halt because the players go "Ick." Probably requires more out-of-character discussion than your typical campaign.
A good way to start might be to ask your players to provide you an Appendix N of books, movies, and music they find inspirational and evocative of the characters they anticipate and the evil they wish to perpetrate -- that can provide you an envelope of themes and scenarios to work with, as well as help define the boundaries of what is sound for the campaign and what may be transgressive.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #1 on May 9, 2012, 12:23pm »
I'm hesitant to reply because my answer to a similar question got me flamed on another board, but what the heck.
Basically, I won't run a campaign centered around evil player-characters.
Not because I think it is wrong, so don't rush to tell me how it is just a game, etc. No, I don't run games for evil player-characters because I don't find it fun and, by The Nine, if I'm going to put all that work into running a campaign I'm going to have fun, too!
And by evil I mean cackling, moustache-twirling, tie-the-virgin-to-the-railroad tracks kind of evil. Demons, devils, werewolves, vampires, balrogs ... that sort of evil.
You want to be Han Solo "what's in it for me?" kind of "evil" guy, that's okay.
Joined: Aug 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 261 Karma: 21
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #2 on May 9, 2012, 12:36pm »
I simply don't use Good and Evil in my campaigns. I either run without alignment or with Law/Neutral/Chaos. If players want to perform acts that would be considered "good" or "evil" then there are in-character consequences how they will be treated by NPCs (but no mechanical game consequences).
One of the most memorable PC's was a Ninja run by my friend's young daughter. "You are attacked by orcs." "I cut their heads off!" "The shop keeper asks 10gp for the bauble." "I cut his head off!" "The feeble old man knows rumor of great treasure." "I cut his head off!" Then the other players had to intervene and it was hilarious and fun for all.
Joined: Sept 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 387 Karma: 5
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #3 on May 9, 2012, 12:42pm »
I have always forbidden evil PCs, assassin PCs, evil thief PCs. On the other hand I would allow a player to play an intelligent monster which is traditionally listed as evil to be a PC provided that he alters the alignment tendencies to non-evil. Gamers who want to play evil PCs creep me out to no end, and contribute to the criticisms of the game by outsiders.
The setting I have created for the campaign could be called dark fantasy, in the sence that much of the worlds morality is black and grey. There are no real "good guys" that are righteous and holy in every way, everyone has flaws.
That sounds like a wonderful world you've created, I'd enjoy playing it, and it sounds like your players have naturally opened the "shades of gray" can-of-worms you've handed them.
Joined: Dec 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 346 Location: Waukegan, IL Karma: 85
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #6 on May 9, 2012, 2:07pm »
I've never run an "evil campaign" per se, but my players' PCs almost always tend to be chaotic in nature. I think all you really need is a way to unify their goals, and give them a reason to adventure together. From my observations, the thing that always crashes an evil or amoral campaign is when players get the idea in their heads that their PCs need to start offing each other, which destroys the game for obvious reasons.
Figure out the items, MacGuffins, etc. and where to place them. Are they in a dungeon? Does some order of monks have them locked away in a vault for safe-keeping? Do they need to plan an elaborate heist since some rich dude has what they need in his well-guarded mansion? It can follow the same basic framework of any other type of adventures.
Give them opportunities to make decisions with regard to how they want to go about things. Like a small band of humanoids that they could either slaughter or recruit to their cause. A small village with a healthy amount of crime and naughty business going on that they could perhaps become enmeshed in.
Of course, some of the people they might choose to associate with might be very untrustworthy, so be sure to give them challenges based on the logic of that, but be careful that you don't find yourself "punishing" them for making amoral choices. That's an easy trap to fall into, and can suck the fun right out. Try as hard as possible to be emotionally detached.
A good bit of gonzo tossed in can help keep things from getting too weighty.
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #7 on May 9, 2012, 2:11pm »
If you allow it, you might want to be clear of the consequences before they go down those paths. After all, there are upsides to being Lawful, not the least of which is that, in general, other people have your back and want what's best for you. The paths of Chaos are paved with infighting and backstabbing, and jealousy and rivalry are not unhappy faults, but the very bread and butter of getting ahead. To be sure, some people, who are very clever, very lucky, very charismatic, and exhibit at least occasional self-control and strategy, can work their way to the top relatively successfully through the path of Chaos (think Mark Anthony's rise to the top in Rome), although in the end the very hubris that made his rise possible was the cause also of his downfall (to the very Lawful, if not especially kind, Augustus Cæsar).
Trying to make one's way through the dark arts (the gnome and aspiring vampire) is intrinsically dangerous. The "safest" way should require great personal sacrifice (time, bodily health, sanity, loved ones, etc.) and still not be guaranteed. The "faster" solutions tend to be almost always fatal (or worse!). Besides, the traditional trope is that these dark powers cannot be controlled, despite one's best hopes, and that the seeming appeal of selling one's soul (i.e. becoming a vampire) is shown, in reality, to be the beginning of a terrible nightmare.
So, in a "sandboxy" way, you might give them to chance to explore these paths, but let them know, if they do their homework, that there are real, and really unhappy, consequences to these paths. The dwarf and what's-in-it-for-me elf may be able to do well by themselves, if they can manage not to be betrayed. The others ... well, don't let them say you didn't warn them!
Basically, I won't run a campaign centered around evil player-characters.
Not because I think it is wrong, so don't rush to tell me how it is just a game, etc. No, I don't run games for evil player-characters because I don't find it fun and, by The Nine, if I'm going to put all that work into running a campaign I'm going to have fun, too!
And by evil I mean cackling, moustache-twirling, tie-the-virgin-to-the-railroad tracks kind of evil. Demons, devils, werewolves, vampires, balrogs ... that sort of evil.
I agree with the gist of your post. While I've never run an all-evil campaign, I did play in one where half of the characters were good and the other half evil. Not only did it flame out in a hurry, but at the end the players got really mad at each other. The bad guys pulled no punches and started killing townsfolk, poisoning drinking water, and other things that the good guys basically couldn't counteract. Then they taunted the good guys about it. The bad feelings just weren't worth it.
Bad guys are only fun (in my opinion) when good finally can kick their butt. The good guys might have their backs to the wall at one point, but they need to be able to take the gloating bad guy and punch him in the mouth. When evil wins, the game suffers.
You want to be Han Solo "what's in it for me?" kind of "evil" guy, that's okay.
Agreed, but I think you can argue that it's not really an evil campaign. Your example of Han Solo is a good one because he's a scoundrel but not really evil. Vlad Taltos, from the Steven Brust books, is a wise-cracking assassin in a world where death can be undone. That could be fun.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Dec 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 346 Location: Waukegan, IL Karma: 85
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #9 on May 9, 2012, 2:42pm »
Another benefit to doing this, even if it doesn't work out in the end, is that you can eventually take over the characters as NPCs (assuming they survive the ride). Bad guy NPCs that were once PCs of the players work really well.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 308 Location: Ohio Karma: 27
Re: Evil Party? « Reply #10 on May 9, 2012, 2:49pm »
If I were to run an all evil campaign, I'd look to some of the TV shows I've enjoyed in the past few years:
Dexter The Sopranos Boardwalk Empire The Shield Breaking Bad
A whole mess of 80's John Carpenter, David Cronenberg and Luc Besson films, Tarantino films, gritty 90's british crime films, this growing and dark trend of South Korean and Japanese revenge films, and things like Jean-François Richet's Mesrine I and II.
Ultimately, when you get right down to it, being evil gives you incredible freedom and resources as a character--so long as you can stomach it. However, it doesn't last long. Society will bring you down. The law will be on you. Other criminals will constantly be looking to use you as a stepping stone on their ascent to the top. You'll go paranoid before it's all said and done.
So, if my players wanted an evil game, I'd make it clear to them that I'd try my hardest to do them in. I'd be fair, but everything would be filtered to an extent through Murphy's Law. Know what I mean?
Your characters rob a merchant? Cool--they'd better be able to use what they stole, because that hot property isn't going to be accepted by just any old merchant. They'll have to find a fence for the goods, and he's going to want his cut.
But what's to say that the law won't be shaking that fence down? Maybe he's an informant--gives up the player's identities straight away?
What if that merchant you stole from is knee deep in corruption himself? The local thieves guild won't like you guys moving in on their territory. They might even send out some thugs to shake the players down, if not kill them outright.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Evil Party? « Reply #11 on May 9, 2012, 2:54pm »
On the other hand keep in mind that Arneson's early Blackmoor campaign had players running vampire and balrog characters, so it's not like it can't be done.
I suppose it comes down to how nasty-evil the characters are. Think about old Hitchcock movies where he gives the illusion of nasty without showing it, and compare this to newer "splatter" movies where directors focus on the gore.
If players don't focus too much on the nasty it could be fine.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Trying to make one's way through the dark arts (the gnome and aspiring vampire) is intrinsically dangerous. The "safest" way should require great personal sacrifice (time, bodily health, sanity, loved ones, etc.) and still not be guaranteed. The "faster" solutions tend to be almost always fatal (or worse!). Besides, the traditional trope is that these dark powers cannot be controlled, despite one's best hopes, and that the seeming appeal of selling one's soul (i.e. becoming a vampire) is shown, in reality, to be the beginning of a terrible nightmare.
Exactly! I have made the danger of persuing the dark arts very clear to the players. Glewiel the elf seems ok with the whole losing her soul thing as well as the other restrictions a vampire has such as weakness in sunlight( not instant death but it could blind, burn, or paralyze her), vulnerability to turn undead etc.
Pennywise the gnome is fully aware of the horrible things that consulting demons could do to him. I even ran the rough drafts of a few demonic corruption tables by him, which have effects ranging from growing an antenna, to having his mind trapped in the nearest inanimate object, to a death curse. He still plans on goung through with his fell sorceries.
As far as the personal sacrifices go all have been used except for bringing loved ones into the mix. Lots of time will be put into the magical aspects of the dark arts, as the magic in my setting is all ritualistic (save for a few minor cantrips) with each spell taking upwards of an hour game time to complete. Physical health is often sacrificed in the process of casting spells, for example getting a fever or a nosebleed from a particularly long or complex spell. Sanity of the characters comes up in the form of sanity points very similar to those in Call of Cthulhu.
Another benefit to doing this, even if it doesn't work out in the end, is that you can eventually take over the characters as NPCs (assuming they survive the ride). Bad guy NPCs that were once PCs of the players work really well.
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