Jack Vance « Thread Started on Sept 5, 2009, 11:32pm »
Not sure if this statement is statistically rigorous and correct, but: it seems to me that while most of you have read the Lord of the Rings series, the Conan stories, etc., not as many people have read Jack Vance's Dying Earth stories.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #1 on Sept 6, 2009, 11:14am »
I’ve been musing on how people consider a world to be “dead” if there is no new product being churned out for it. Dying Earth stands in stark contrast to Conan and Middle-earth in that regard (or Star Trek or what have you), in that the latter have been getting continuous new publications from the time of the “original” up until the present day. Even if you’re a purist for the originals and ignore all the later stuff, they tend to bring the “product line” constantly back into your consciousness.
Dying Earth was never “big” in the first place. There are four books, but they were written disparately; sometimes decades apart. So that’s one reason: it hasn’t ever become a “franchise” the way some others have.
Another reason is that it pays a lot of homage to the genre—particularly, in my opinion, CAS and ERB—and satirizes it. This makes it mainly accessible to industry insiders.
Finally, the characters, as a rule, are not very likable. The unlikable hero is a valid literary device and not a flaw per se, however it contributes to the unpopularity of the series.
That said, I don’t know of anyone who has read these books and doesn’t like them. I think they are great, particularly the first one.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Re: Jack Vance « Reply #2 on Sept 6, 2009, 12:17pm »
I have read the Dying Earth tales and I like them. However, I read them more for research and out of curiosity than I did for pure enjoyment. It seems to me that Dying Earth is much too "culty" to be part of the mainstream.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #3 on Sept 6, 2009, 12:36pm »
Vance is, along with Howard and Leiber, one of the touchstone authors of old school D&D. I suspect that most gamers of a certain vintage are familiar with his works and probably enjoy them greatly; I know I do. They're definitely rather different than what's commonly considered "fantasy" these days, but that's part of what I find most appealing about them. They're dark and whimsical and filled with lots of unpleasant and despicable characters. But they're also deeply magical in the sense that they depict worlds that aren't just the modern day in medieval dress. I love them.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #4 on Sept 8, 2009, 1:28am »
I keep wanting to read these (I happened upon a copy of all four in one volume!), but I just don't seem to get going on them. I start and then something comes up.
But I'm going to give it another shot! I really feel I owe it to myself.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #5 on Sept 8, 2009, 12:01pm »
I dearly love Vance and am sad that I'm nearly at the end of the long process of hunting down all of his books. (Bad Ronald, I'm coming for you!) However, I was well into that search when I came across The Eyes of the Overworld and realized I'd read it before in my early college years and it hadn't made much of an impression on me at the time. So I can understand why he's an acquired taste, although I think it's one well worth acquiring.
The New York Times ran a great tribute to his work, but one that portrays him as a "writer's writer" and gives short shrift to his gift for constructing plots, which I think really shines through in his mystery writing. I'd recommend the Planet of Adventure series as a way to get the Vance bug; it's nominally science fiction, but has plenty of D&D inspiration (e.g. the underground cities of the Pnume), and is a more traditional series of novels than the Dying Earth stories.
I dearly love Vance and am sad that I'm nearly at the end of the long process of hunting down all of his books. (Bad Ronald, I'm coming for you!) However, I was well into that search when I came across The Eyes of the Overworld and realized I'd read it before in my early college years and it hadn't made much of an impression on me at the time. So I can understand why he's an acquired taste, although I think it's one well worth acquiring.
The New York Times ran a great tribute to his work, but one that portrays him as a "writer's writer" and gives short shrift to his gift for constructing plots, which I think really shines through in his mystery writing. I'd recommend the Planet of Adventure series as a way to get the Vance bug; it's nominally science fiction, but has plenty of D&D inspiration (e.g. the underground cities of the Pnume), and is a more traditional series of novels than the Dying Earth stories.
I've corresponded with the man who wrote that Vance piece for the NYT, Carlo Rotella, to express my appreciation of his article. He was pleased to know it was enjoyed. A kind fellow, that Carlo.
Re: Jack Vance « Reply #7 on Sept 27, 2010, 7:44am »
Well, if D&D has accomplished anything worthwhile, apart from wasting our time , is that it has introduced this brilliant writer to a far bigger audience. I would have never heard of Vance were it not for D&D.
While English is not my native language, rarely do I have a problem understanding English literature. When reading Vance I required a lexicon at hand; never have I encountered such vocabulary, or had so many unknown words. Yes, the writing style is baroque but it's hard not to be fascinated. The world play is ingenious. And the "high" language comes in stark contrast with the "lowly" acts of his heroes.
I love the underlying satire of the human condition, of civilization, of systems of belief. The dying earth's inhabitants succumb to their lower instincts, seeking nothing but pleasuring their whims with amoral abandon, realizing that as the sun falters and goes dark, no memory of their deeds, no trace of their civilization shall remain.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #8 on Sept 27, 2010, 10:20am »
...and Vance is FUNNY. Perhaps not "laugh out loud", though I sometimes do, but funny nevertheless. His admiration for the work of P.G. Wodehouse (who I deeply adore) shines through all the high weirdness and "unlikability" of the characters. Anyone wanting to be sold on Vancian magic need only read the first few pages of The Dying Earth to receive an enlightening download. I'll wager most will want to keep reading.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #9 on Sept 27, 2010, 12:07pm »
I ended up reading the Lyonesse trilogy before the Dying Earth stories. While the magic 'system' is not necessarily similar to D&D/Dying Earth, the Lyonesse books might be a little earier to digest (for those who have trouble with the grim/whimsical/picaresque nature(s) of the Dying Earth)
Vance has become one of my favorite authors and I'm acquiring his books faster than I can read them. For the interested, there is a Vance message board at http://jackvance.yuku.com/
« Last Edit: Sept 27, 2010, 12:09pm by ragnorakk »
...and Vance is FUNNY. Perhaps not "laugh out loud", though I sometimes do, but funny nevertheless. His admiration for the work of P.G. Wodehouse (who I deeply adore) shines through all the high weirdness and "unlikability" of the characters. Anyone wanting to be sold on Vancian magic need only read the first few pages of The Dying Earth to receive an enlightening download. I'll wager most will want to keep reading.
Vance has a great sense of (black) humour. In certain parts I found myself giggling. And perhaps it's this humorous approach to the situations described which make the characters, if not likable, bearable. So despite all their cruelty the reader can relate to them.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #11 on Sept 28, 2010, 5:33pm »
To bring things back around to the main topic around here, some of what I love about The Dying Earth and the Cugel stories is also what makes for a great D&D game: Vance can be ironic, satirical, and comical while simultaneously conveying weird menace. Some of Cugel's conversations with chillingly scary deodands come to mind. They engage in jolly repartee while locked in a life-or-death struggle that never loses its sense of peril. It reminds me of the laughing-one-minute, scared-to-death-of-the-saving-throw-the-next (while continuing to laugh and joke) tabletop gaming experience I enjoy.
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #12 on Sept 28, 2010, 11:26pm »
Vance's ability to create a familiar yet alien environment is one of his more brilliant talents. The Dying Earth IS the world of man in decline but it is the slow, despondent, whimpering death that Faerie died long ago on Earth. The moral fibre of the characters is selfish to the core, and yet what else are they to do? While his descriptions imply surreal landscapes, they are familiar as that of the Otherworld of Faerie from folktales. His imagery reminds me of other writers, and indeed may be an homage or tip of the hat to those he respected.
I think his descriptions of wizards and their private hoard of magical devices should be mandatory reading for anybody who plays a mage in OD&D! It should serve to inspire the compulsion to accquire spells for survival, and to USE magic items as needed in lieu of spells! No libraries or kindly old masters here!
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Re: Jack Vance « Reply #13 on Sept 29, 2010, 11:28pm »
@SSFSX17 - I think point #5 on your blog is particularly salient. Those wizards generally have more interesting things to do than go dungeon bashing! @thorswulf - I agree with your demands for the mandatory reading program!
I'm starting to think that the Vancian influence on D&D magic is somewhat overplayed. Now granted Gygax says the system (for AD&D at least, in the DMG) owes much to Vance's ideas. For inspiration, it's obvious - prismatic spray, 'fire-and-forget' memorization, etc - but in the implementation in the game, it's all Gygax making design decisions, and usually amending them almost every later time he wrote about it. Kinda like alignment...
I think his descriptions of wizards and their private hoard of magical devices should be mandatory reading for anybody who plays a mage in OD&D! It should serve to inspire the compulsion to accquire spells for survival, and to USE magic items as needed in lieu of spells! No libraries or kindly old masters here!
But there is a very big difference. The "high level" mages of Dying Earth can force at best 4 of the "higher level" spells or six of the "lower level" spells. Their D&D counterparts can memorise more than 20 spells easily. So since spells come cheap, why waste a magic item charge? If you only could memorise 4 spells, then you'd most definitely need to use magic items in dire situations.
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, is that it has introduced this brilliant writer to a far bigger audience. I would have never heard of Vance were it not for D&D. ![[avatar]](http://titan.provider24.biz/download/Image/game/units/dragon.gif "[avatar]")