|  Author | Topic: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon? (Read 4,472 times) |
irishwarrior
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Karma: 4 |  | How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon?
« Thread Started on Jul 11, 2007, 10:12pm » | |
How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon?
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Finarvyn
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Karma: 85 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #1 on Jul 11, 2007, 11:52pm » | |
When I design a mega-dungeon I try to plan things in layers.
Step one is to imagine roughly the size and scale I'm looking for. How many sheets of paper in width and length? How deep do I want to go?
Step two is to create a few general sections to my dungeon. Perhaps I want some "theme" floors; maybe level 7 is going to be the "infernal" floor or level 3 is going to be the "orc tribe wars" floor. Sometimes I decide to put in underground rivers or lakes. Perhaps a special bad guy like an evil high priest or a dark wizard on a low level. Maybe a dragon or balrog on another. I try to decide where the big stuff will go before I sprinkle less important things thorugh my space.
Step three is to populate my dungeon with critters based on my themes, if possible. I like to refer to Monsters & Treasure for a general guideline as to which monsters might be found on which dungeon levels. Sometimes I put together special wandering monster charts for specific levels.
Step four is to play and evolve. A true mega-dungeon has some life to it, so when PCs beat up on what is there I want to be able to replenish at least some of the damage. I rely a lot on my wandering monster charts or M&T at this point.
That's what I do....
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philotomy
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philotomy
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Karma: 21 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #3 on Dec 2, 2007, 12:41am » | |
I haven't (yet) used them in filling a megadungeon, but I think Monster & Treasure Assortments would be a valuable resource.
Actually, I'm planning on expanding a site-based scenario I had worked up, previously, into the location of a full-blown megadungeon underworld, so I've been reading through this stuff for inspiration and ideas.
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coffee
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Karma: 49 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #4 on Dec 2, 2007, 12:59am » | |
I'm working on my first megadungeon right now, so this is kind of cool to see this question come up.
I went back and re-read the article from the Dragon, "Let There Be A Method To Your Madness". Sorry, I have it in the Best of the Dragon v. 1, so I don't know which issue it was in; perhaps one of our members who has the Dragon CD ROM archive could enlighten us.
I found this article to be most helpful. Briefly, it suggests figuring out who designed the dungeon in the first place and work from there. And that's what I'm doing, and I already have plans for about a dozen levels down and several offshoot levels.
Then, when I have it all done, I'm going to go through it again and figure out what happened in the mean time (i.e. between when it was build and now). That's when the populating and such will occur.
It may take me a while, but when I'm done, I hope to have a dungeon that will stand the test of time.
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evreaux
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Karma: 7 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #5 on Dec 2, 2007, 10:00am » | |
"Methods" does have a few helpful suggestions sprinkled through it, but I have to say that I am completely at odds with its underlying assumptions and overall approach to dungeon design. In fact, I've frequently argued against the "top down" strategy, it being unnessary, counter-productive, highly conducive to DM Masterpiece Overdesign Syndrome, and the most likely approach to maximize efforts that will never be seen in a game. I think it also, intentionally or unintentionally, tends to privilege realism and dungeon ecology over alien weirdness and underworld mystery (two things I put in the essential category). "Bottom up" design of a basic framework and sufficient fleshing out to stay ahead of your players (without worrying over who built the dungeon, how many corps of slaves were used in its construction, what each room was used for, what the timeline is for the place, etc.) is much more effective at getting a dungeon running and actually starting play, which IME significantly helps fuel organic and motivated design of the living, expanding dungeon.
This is no knock on Coffee or anyone else drawing inspiration from the piece--anything that gets you working on, and more importantly playing in, a dungeon is great. It's just diametrically opposed to my own MO.
EDIT--I should note, for the sake of clarification, that when I say "bottom up" and "top down," I'm not referring to levels of the dungeon. The former means concentrating on encounters that the party is likely to run into in the next couple of sessions, and letting the big picture of the dungeon grow out of adventuring; the latter means starting with a detailed backstory for the whole dungeon, with a creator and chronology, and moving eventually to the encounters that the players will find on level 1. Because of the subject matter, this terminology is a bit more confusing than normal (where these ideas are generaly applied to campaign building approaches). 
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jdrakeh
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« Reply #6 on Dec 2, 2007, 3:37pm » | |
I cheat. I buy my maps from 0One Games (Dungeon Under the Mountain product line) and then use either the tables in AEG Toolbox (a D&D 3.5 supplement) or the AD&D 1e DMG to dress them up. Lately, the Toolbox tables have been winning out because they're just as random but allow for far more detail (there are more tables).
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oltekos
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Karma: 11 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #7 on Dec 2, 2007, 4:54pm » | |
I work from the bottom up (literally). I usually brainstorm over the course of a couple weeks (we generally only play about once a month [maybe twice], which is nice in it's own way) & figure out who or what created it, & who or what is on the final level. After that is done, I work up to the surface, which I find is much easier for me. I'm certainly no artist (unlike my better half), but I think I 've always been dang good at maps & the like. After it's drawn, I'll usually fill it with what ever set piece encounters I deem reasonable, but, I always utilize wandering tables, a lot. After all the prep work is done, I just find an adventure hook to get the PC's there, & voila! All done. I agree with both Finarvyn & Evreaux on this point, as well: to me, a dungeon is an ever evolving entity unto itself; constantly in a state of flux--which should lead the party into a constant state of terrror!! 
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coffee
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Karma: 49 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #8 on Dec 2, 2007, 8:13pm » | |
While I respect and appreciate the points of view put forth herein, I'm going to stick with the plan and methodology I've indicated above.
I've tried the 'bottom up' dungeon creation thing, and it doesn't work for me. I tend to wander aimlessly putting rooms and corridors in with no rhyme or reason, and find myself losing faith in the dungeon as a whole.
The way I'm doing it this time is what works for me (so far), so I'm using it. Everybody has to decide for themselves what method they use. The most important thing, as evereaux said, is to get started on it and DO it, so you can get playing.
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Armand de Falaise. HD = 1, HP = 8, AC = 4, Move = 5. Chainmail, Shield, Battle Axe (1d8), Throwing Ax (1d6), waterskin (full), lucky amulet.
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dwayanu
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Karma: 27 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #9 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:09pm » | |
Although I tend to work "bottom up," I find the "Method" approach a good source of ideas for sections of the dungeon.
The first two or three levels are especially hard for me. My own standard may not be that of the players, but I'm pretty hung up on it. Pace of play may force me to rely on a more casual approach, but I like to start with a "tour de force."
The first thing I do is brainstorm encounters. One thing about the upper levels is that PCs don't have many hit points to "spend" in exploring them; one hard fight or similarly depleting trap may be their limit. Part of the challenge for me is to come up with encounters that test the players rather than game stats.
Looking through my brainstorm notes, I pick a number of promising ideas to flesh out and fine tune. Those key encounters form the "skeleton" for the dungeon.
Mapping starts with placing those. As I like long corridors, I start with a "big picture" at 240'/inch (8-line quadrille @ 30' per).
I sketch those major arteries, then get down to details.
Filling in the detailed maps (4 or 5 lines/in. @ 10' per), my first concern is for how the layout functions as a "flow chart." For the most part, I want players to have at least two options besides retracing their steps. There should usually be a way around a trap or monster that is not guarding a major trove. Secret passages are good for that, and given the Vol. 3 chances for finding them ought to be fairly common (so a good number are not found off the bat). Ways up and down should also be plentiful.
Mapping done, I use random stocking as a starting point to determine what's in between the key encounters. I tend to do all the rolling first, creating a custom "monster and treasure assortment" that also lists empty and trapped rooms. Assigning those to map locations combines dice-rolls and discretion.
A reason besides convenience for using the tables is my assumption that they reflect some care in design. The frequency of magic items is a case in point. One liberty I take is to break up some (especially the most valuable) gem/jewelry results and spread the wealth more. If a single hoard is rich enough for a party to level up on it, then the challenge had better (IMO) be commensurate! I may also enrich other treasures, so that at least a fairly tough encounter yields about twice the XP in treasure as in monster slaying.
I like to speed competent players on their way to 4th level!
Another thing in which I invest some thought is coming up with loot other than piles of coin. Recognizing and transporting treasure is to my mind an important aspect of the game's challenge.
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makofan
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Karma: 12 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #10 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:16pm » | |
I once made a dungeon called "The 30 Fears", using Moldvay/Cook. It had 150 rooms per level, and each room was 30' x 30'. I used every entry in the Monsters & Treasure Assortment (which my players had not seen) exactly once. I also added in a few 'keynote' monster and treasure encounters per level. And it had a gazillion specials. I don't think we worried about ecology, the players levelled up in safe rooms, and food was never even brougt up. But hey we were 13 years old!
PS
It was a lot of fun
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coffee
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Karma: 49 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #11 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:21pm » | |
Quote:
And that, after all, is the whole point.
I'm reminded of a dungeon the guys in my first group went through (they told me about it). It was four levels deep; they were instructed to bypass every door and go to the very bottom, to the room there.
Inside the room was a lever, which they dutifully pulled. And all the doors opened up, the monsters came out, and they all lined up.
Then the party fought their way out.
Ecology? No.
Realism? No.
Fun? Heck yeah!
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Armand de Falaise. HD = 1, HP = 8, AC = 4, Move = 5. Chainmail, Shield, Battle Axe (1d8), Throwing Ax (1d6), waterskin (full), lucky amulet.
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dwayanu
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Karma: 27 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #12 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:33pm » | |
I keep trying to edit my previous post, oddly to no avail. "I disagreeumption" should read "I disagreeumption."
Aaargh! Why can't I enter M Y A S S U M P T I O N ??
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foster1941
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Karma: 39 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #13 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:57pm » | |
It would seem the ezboard language filter has replaced "my ass" with "I disagree." Lame.
EDIT: err, make that proboards, not ezboard... (also, quote my message to see the ultra-secret trick for fooling the language filters...)
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korgoth
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Karma: 13 | | Re: How do you go about designing your MegaDungeon
« Reply #14 on Dec 3, 2007, 12:59pm » | |
I'm a first-timer to the Megadungeon thing, so I may be making a ton of mistakes. Fortunately, I have read the great stuff that Philotomy linked to above, so I'm at least approaching the task with a respectable level of education.
Since I'm using an original world, I first figured out what that world was like, and more specifically what the starting region was like (not even mapped yet, but I have developed it conceptually and know broad strokes of the timeline). Then I needed to decide on the specific location. I was originally going to put it under a ruined wizard's tower, but I changed my mind and decided to put it underneath the main city of the campaign (since humanity is going extinct in this world, and it is very arid, and the city itself is a ruined pile of different styles and cultures, my primary visual inspiration is pre-liberation Kabul).
That being decided, I felt the need to establish the "why" of the place (I'm a philosopher, sue me!). I can't work without the "why", without some inkling of the causes. I decided that the megadungeon incorporates a number of different delvings which had a number of different purposes, including catacombs, a necropolis, a dwarven colony, an underground human community, an outpost of the Ancients, and several much weirder projects. As legends of these places are uncovered, each distinct area of the Megadungeon can become a destination in itself: if the players find out that the Ancients had a presence down there, they may deliberately seek it out in order to plunder it (that may or may not be a wise decision... depends on how much you know about the Ancients!). This way the Megadungeon contains some meta-puzzles: where is the Crypt of Resplendent Decay? Is the Upper Oubliette really an oubliette? How do we find the Place of the Ancient Ones? I'm calling these "meta-puzzles" because they're not puzzles in the dungeon, but puzzles about it. It also lets me develop legends of the place that the players can learn.
In view of this, I made up a master plan of the levels and sub-levels. I basically just represented each level as a square, determined how many there would be, and divided the squares in such a way as to locate my distinct areas and sub-levels. The way I worked it out, there really aren't any "main levels" - each level of physical depth is a collection of sub-levels. Many of them are interconnected, and many are not. There are places where you will have to go down for a long time before you can go very far West, for example.
Now I am in the middle of drawing these levels. This might be a mistake, because as I draw places I have some good ideas about what can go in a given place. I might forget some of these ideas... fortunately, I am more focused on just making the maps that it isn't too important. Of the good ideas that I have had, the ones that are most memorable will still be in my mind when I revist the upper levels in the next phase. Or so goes my plan. I am currently planning on completing all the maps through level 6 (a little over half way, and a pivotal depth in my master plan) before moving to the next phase.
The next phase will be detailing and stocking. I want to come up with good physical descriptions of the various areas, because there will be distinct architectural styles as well as the general variations in sights, sounds and smells that I want to pay attention to. I try to make my DMing very 'sense-evocative' (I avoid the term "sensual" so that there aren't any misunderstandings!) so I need to have good notes about how things look, smell, etc. And I need to stock those rooms! This will be a fun phase because of all the weird stuff I hope to accomplish.
The last phase will be filling in things like wandering monster tables for the levels (some will have such things, some may not) and maybe some general tables like an "empty room dressing table" where incidental, weird or even unique (and desirable or terrible!) things can populate those rooms I will designate as "empty". I can then amend the entries for those rooms on the fly, rather than having to note "there are small piles of mustard seeds and scraps of leather on the floor here"... that is something that could be random in placement. Of course, there are some levels that are so strange or out of the way that they will need their own tables for such things.
After I do all of that, I'll repeat the last phases (mapping, stocking and detailing) for levels 7+.
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