So even a stripped-down version of 4E classes is going to be more restrictive than I'd like. Note, for example, that unlike OD&D the same effect is never available to multiple classes - choosing to be a cleric is going to mean you'll never have access to dispel magic.
That's true of many of the combat and skill oriented effects, but also most (all? I don't have all the books) of the casters get access to any of the rituals (which is where a lot of the indirect effects like Comprehend Languages and such got moved).
(I also don't have much problem importing powers and such from other classes when it makes sense, but that may make me a Heretic in 4E circles).
And, more generally, I feel the approach of "choose your class, then pick from its list of powers" is going to tend to encourage an "if it's not written on my sheet I can't do it" mentality.
I think you might be able to get around a lot of this with by making one more power card:
Do A Thing! At-Will, Standard Action Your character attempts to do something awesome! Range, Area, Targets: Adjudicated by the DM, based on the thing you are attempting to do. Attack: Adjudicated by the DM Hit: [insert damage values from p.42 of the DMG here] or as adjudicated by the DM, plus any additional effects adjudicated by the DM. Miss: As adjudicated by the DM. Effect: As adjudicated by the DM.
Note that I think it's really important to put the sample damages from the DMG on the card even if you never end up using them in play. The damage values on the high end of the charts are decent enough that players should be tempted to try it out when they're low on encounter powers and don't want to (or can't) dip into dailies.
Who knows, maybe over time "Do A Thing!" will become their power of choice and you can drop some of the others? That would lighten up the rule-load a good bit
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 571 Location: NYC Karma: 34
Re: OD&D-izing 4E; AKA "4E Lite" « Reply #16 on Oct 15, 2009, 10:39pm »
I like the Do a Thing! card. I've seen advice elsewhere to have a "Do Something Awesome" encounter and daily, but the idea to put the damage values on the card is new to me & makes a lot of sense.
You're right that anyone with the Ritual Caster feat has access to rituals. In that case, though, I think the distinction between rituals and powers is too restrictive. Silence is the canonical example for me - think of all the things you could do with the silence spell (interrupt enemy casters and accidentally screw your allied casters, move stealthily through a dungeon, inadvertently tip off people of your presence when they lose their ability to hear, etd), so few of which make it into 4E because they don't fall neatly on one side or the other of combat/skills vs. off-the-grid ritual-land.
Since thinking about the silence ritual makes me cranky, let me say a positive thing - I playtested the adventure I ran at Gen Con using OD&D, which was great for coming up with freewheeling concepts. Taking one of those concepts (a combat on a rotating sphere that PCs might be pushed onto / jump off of) and turning it into a 4E battle was very satisfying because the dramatic scenery rewarded all the counting of five-foot squares, and the climactic battle justified the amount of game time we spent resolving the combat.
Recently I've been thinking that maybe all I want from a 4E lite is to use all the 4E rules but only for the scenes where they're needed. I'd have players make versions of their characters using both OD&D and 4E (maybe 3E too if we want fiddly skill points and weird multiclassing sometimes), and we'd mutually decide which version we'd use to play out which scenes.
You're right that anyone with the Ritual Caster feat has access to rituals. In that case, though, I think the distinction between rituals and powers is too restrictive. Silence is the canonical example for me - think of all the things you could do with the silence spell (interrupt enemy casters and accidentally screw your allied casters, move stealthily through a dungeon, inadvertently tip off people of your presence when they lose their ability to hear, etd), so few of which make it into 4E because they don't fall neatly on one side or the other of combat/skills vs. off-the-grid ritual-land.
I don't have my books with me, but I'm not even sure that silence stops spellcasting in 4E .
Still, there's no reason you can't have a power and a ritual for similar effects. Just make sure the ritual version does something to justify the extra costs and casting time associated (even if that something is just being allowed to access it without spending a power slot on it, or accessing it from a class not normally allowed to).
Recently I've been thinking that maybe all I want from a 4E lite is to use all the 4E rules but only for the scenes where they're needed. I'd have players make versions of their characters using both OD&D and 4E (maybe 3E too if we want fiddly skill points and weird multiclassing sometimes), and we'd mutually decide which version we'd use to play out which scenes.
I'm kind of a newcomer, but that idea, more than anything, signifies why this whole "old-school" idea appeals to me - use whatever rules make sense for the occasion and don't worry about it.
Re: OD&D-izing 4E; AKA "4E Lite" « Reply #18 on Jan 6, 2010, 4:36pm »
Interesting discussion!
Some ideas (using your base four classes assumption):
-Convert cleric and wizard powers to "spells" and assign them a "spells per day" progression
-Eliminate Fighter powers. Assign the "at-wills" as class abilities and give them the ability to do auto x2 damage once per encounter and x3 damage once per day. Eliminate the class ability dependent on minis - the marking/opportunity attack ability - and replace with a damage boosting ability such as +2d6 dmg to "marked" opponents (equivalent to the rogue's sneak attack dmg) or allow a reroll on a missed attack roll ala the elven racial ability.
-Eliminate Rogue powers. Assign the at-wills as class abilities, and assign a +1/2lvls bonus to-hit with pg42 stunts.
The elimination of Powers seems to be the biggest "fix" necessary to remove 4E from the realm of the battlemat.
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Re: OD&D-izing 4E; AKA "4E Lite" « Reply #19 on Jun 19, 2010, 9:40am »
I thought I'd give this a bump, since I'm thinking about 4E again. Has anyone put together a doc that has "4E lite" rules in it? What I'd like is something similar to Holmes in size but for a novice to run 4E.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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Re: OD&D-izing 4E; AKA "4E Lite" « Reply #20 on Jun 19, 2010, 10:09am »
I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but there is a starter boxed set for 4e:
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: OD&D-izing 4E; AKA "4E Lite" « Reply #21 on Jun 19, 2010, 11:19am »
I have that. It doesn't have character generation rules, if I recall correctly.
I'd really like some sort of word doc where someone has trimmed out the stuff I don't need and kept the parts that I do. I find that starting with the rules and trying to eliminate what I don't need really requires that I have a more solid understanding of the system than I have, which is why I'm hoping someone better versed in 4E puts together a home-brew rules set which is really light weight. That way I only have to learn what I need.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,503 Karma: 57
Re: OD&D-izing 4E; AKA "4E Lite" « Reply #23 on Jun 20, 2010, 4:08am »
Supposedly they're coming out with a new starter set, that will include character generation. As I understand it, it'll be more like Holmes then we've seen for a long time.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
That's the one. I don't really know anything else about it, but I happened to remember it and figured I'd mention it.
That would be D&D Essentials. The basic set will include only four classes (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard) and four races (dwarf, elf, halfling, human) and material for levels 1-3. I understand that there may be some changes made to the class and race features for purposes of simplicity, and possibly to apply lessons learned after PHB2 and PHB3. In that sense, D&D Essentials may be almost like a D&D 4.5. There will be supplemental materials for it including a new rules compendium, soft-cover splat books with simplified versions of the other races and classes featured in 4E, and a book featuring new races and classes for playing "shadow characters" (assassins, necromancers, revenants, etc.)
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
[ There will be supplemental materials for it including a new rules compendium, soft-cover splat books with simplified versions of the other races and classes featured in 4E, and a book featuring new races and classes for playing "shadow characters" (assassins, necromancers, revenants, etc.)
Wait Essentials is getting supplements? that's awesome!
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