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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 11:40:58 GMT -6
I agree with Rob about balance.
Something that comes to my mind, though, is an old aphorism from the military; junior officers worry about tactics, midlevel officers worry about strategy, senior officers worry about logistics. Essentially, as the campaign grows in level, the TYPE of problem you're attending to shifts. I don't want to be a 25th level character who's just hitting bigger monsters with a bigger sword; I want to be doing different things. Literature abounds with examples of situations that CAN'T be resolved just by donking somebody with a sword; gaming needs more of them. Yes, some people have always had a place in their game for quick thinkers, but the vast majority of commercial adventures are simply solved by violence.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 3, 2012 12:32:26 GMT -6
Yep. Great post Michael!
A small sentence from similar I recently posted at a DF thread: "I do believe that expanding play options present themselves in various ways and degrees through expanding levels."
D&D in its base form is what most folks cement themselves to. I believe that they see the RP aspect as the defining thing outside of combat action. There are many levels of disconnect here from the OD&D rules as play-tested and published compared to 3rd edition+ for instance, but not as much with OD&D<>AD&D. Thus such matters will always come down to choice with the latter grouping. I will continue to encourage folks to play the full campaign version of the rules, this in tandem with the adventuring aspects. This speaks to growth and expansion other than in levels and magic or money (though those are sometimes included in this) and thus continues to guide the game to more involved and self-refined levels of participation.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 3, 2012 14:04:20 GMT -6
Nice post, Michael. I exalt you for it!
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Post by scottyg on Dec 3, 2012 14:06:56 GMT -6
Frank Mentzer made a go at expanding this level of play in the basic sets he did. There's some good stuff in there, but I think some of it was too cosmology-specific for a lot of folks. Lots of good inspiration in those books though. Besides that, there really wasn't much info released that detailed this level of play. As a result, like the system in general, the was the O.G.s <Original Gamers> played, and the way the masses played were very different.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 3, 2012 15:50:30 GMT -6
Frank Mentzer made a go at expanding this level of play in the basic sets he did. There's some good stuff in there, but I think some of it was too cosmology-specific for a lot of folks. Lots of good inspiration in those books though. Besides that, there really wasn't much info released that detailed this level of play. As a result, like the system in general, the was the O.G.s <Original Gamers> played, and the way the masses played were very different. The always perceptive Scotty! Not too far behind my own realization that was PMed to Gronan that we (he & I) should do an easy to fathom HIGH LEVEL PLAY PRIMER and release it as a pdf or something. Taking all of this thread's commentary into consideration, I believe that it would be a good thing. There's still the aspect of "grooming" through premade (leveled) adventures to overcome, but we can address that too for what it's worth. Rob
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 11:07:29 GMT -6
I think that's a great idea. It actually contains some real challenges; if, as I've discovered, most gamers don't really understand the implications of a 9th level fighter being called a "Lord," what ELSE don't they understand? If D&D is a more or less medieval analogue, we should expect high level players to be caught up in the incredible web of lord/vassal relationships of historical Earth. Many feeholders were enfoeffed of more than one lord; how do you resolve conflicts of fealty?
This requires thought. And beer. Mostly beer.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Dec 4, 2012 11:19:25 GMT -6
I think that's a great idea. It actually contains some real challenges; if, as I've discovered, most gamers don't really understand the implications of a 9th level fighter being called a "Lord," what ELSE don't they understand? If D&D is a more or less medieval analogue, we should expect high level players to be caught up in the incredible web of lord/vassal relationships of historical Earth. Many feeholders were enfoeffed of more than one lord; how do you resolve conflicts of fealty? This requires thought. And beer. Mostly beer. Senind barmaid your way ASAP!
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 4, 2012 11:31:13 GMT -6
Well, I was thinking more in terms of generalized to specific play rather than in specific Medieval transpositions, though the latter could be discussed with some pointers, too.
Examples: INTRO UP FRONT MATTER/FAQ What is High Level Play: <condensed answer in staged parts> see #, #, #
Doesn't HLP imbalance the game, creating uncontrollable PCs? <condensed answer>. see #, #
etc.
and then step through the #'d sections describing what it is, how to implement and maintain, etc. etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2012 11:57:27 GMT -6
Certainly, and that's very well needed. My thought was more that "uncontrollable PCs" doesn't necessarily mean only monsters with more hit points. High level players would be more enmeshed in very complex political situations; when trying to secure an alliance with a truculent Earl, how many hit points you have really doesn't matter.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 4, 2012 13:19:57 GMT -6
We agree on this, of course. But, first things first, I think, eh? These people aren't even playing at this level, so overcoming that stigma will be the major hurdle; the rest is just sauce that flavors the whole once they accept making the leap and are assured of landing on their feet afterwards.
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Dec 4, 2012 20:30:41 GMT -6
I've never played a high-level campaign, either as DM or as player. The campaigns I've played in have always ended at mid-level or before, due to players moving, changing schedules, or changing game systems.
I have two questions about high-level campaigns though, for Rob or anyone.
1. To what extent have large battles been a part of your high-level play? 2. What rules have you used to adjudicate such battles?
I ask because, in my current campaign, the PCs were low level (2nd and 4th), and they had already begun to hire large numbers of mercenaries (at one point over 100). This was even after I had increased the monthly wages of mercenaries (as listed in Volume 3 of the LBB's) by a factor of 10, and required the hiring of trained officers at higher rates to command the many mercenaries in the field.
The default assumption in OD&D, I suppose, is to use Chainmail to resolve large battles, but not all of the D&D monsters, spells, etc. are supported by the rules for Chainmail. What do you do when your 14th level Lord's castle, which is guarded by 200 men, 4 hippogriffs, and a gold dragon, is attacked by an arch-mage's army of 300 goblins supported by a guild of hired assassins and a gated-in demon (let us say)? The mind boggles. And given how easy (in a sense) it is for players to hire such armies and to support them through baronies and adventuring, the game seems to demand a method for resolving conflicts on this scale.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 4, 2012 21:16:21 GMT -6
I've never played a high-level campaign, either as DM or as player. The campaigns I've played in have always ended at mid-level or before, due to players moving, changing schedules, or changing game systems. I have two questions about high-level campaigns though, for Rob or anyone. 1. To what extent have large battles been a part of your high-level play? 2. What rules have you used to adjudicate such battles? I ask because, in my current campaign, the PCs were low level (2nd and 4th), and they had already begun to hire large numbers of mercenaries (at one point over 100). This was even after I had increased the monthly wages of mercenaries (as listed in Volume 3 of the LBB's) by a factor of 10, and required the hiring of trained officers at higher rates to command the many mercenaries in the field. The default assumption in OD&D, I suppose, is to use Chainmail to resolve large battles, but not all of the D&D monsters, spells, etc. are supported by the rules for Chainmail. What do you do when your 14th level Lord's castle, which is guarded by 200 men, 4 hippogriffs, and a gold dragon, is attacked by an arch-mage's army of 300 goblins supported by a guild of hired assassins and a gated-in demon (let us say)? The mind boggles. And given how easy (in a sense) it is for players to hire such armies and to support them through baronies and adventuring, the game seems to demand a method for resolving conflicts on this scale. Hi JS: 1) Probably about 5-10%. The possibilities were there, but if you start moving troops around you draw attention to yourself so you had best have a good reason for doing so. 2) An easy set of rules for this would be John Bobek's the Games of War, which allows you to use any sized figure. When doing mass battles as you have exampled, just take the low levels vs, low levels and start dividing hits by groups of 20, 30, etc. It really depends on the scale. I believe GoW is any ratio, but I could be mistaken. As for the higher level stuff, well, that kinda works itself out, doesn't it? They tend to fight each other. Some immediate suggestions: Each player has a rough map with acetate overlay and grease pencil (pretty cheap so get some extra colors). Simultaneous move. This takes into account closing on the enemy and choosing spells, etc. Do this by each side marking single personages on their maps and drawing arrows to destination points, etc. Use a simple notation for what they are doing (fight with wiz, cast fireball, etc), this on a per turn order sheet for each side. These things end rather quickly, actually, especially when magic and dragons, etc are involved. The men-at-arms will usually break and run at the advance of a dragon, so keep in mind morale in the real sense. As for your hiring spree by PPCs, unless they live in quite a nice sized area/region/city, then there would be limits to this due to competition for same (others hire, too) and sheer availability factors. Once they exhaust what you consider to be the limits of this, then training would take some time to restock that particular area. At the same time, on the other side of the coin, word would spread amongst mercenaries further removed geographically that this was a hot spot for getting hired at. I'd say from that an additional month of hiring could be sustained at ever decreasing numbers on top of what you would consider to be a base depending on your population (which I do not know). Thanks for the post, and if you have followups just post 'em. Rob
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Post by grodog on Dec 5, 2012 1:28:32 GMT -6
This is a quick reply Rob---thanks for the pointer to the thread, which I'll catch up reading in detail later in the week. Specifically, what is the highest level you've ever played? My most-recent 2 PCs in Jon Hershberger's Wilderlands campaign are an elf MU/Thief of 11/12 and a human MU of level 10. My highest level PCs ever played were an elf F/MU/Thief of 5/16/17 (before high school up through college), and in college a drowic MU 17 (with a strong demonological bent) and a human cleric 12 or so, too, IIRC. Our PCs in Jon's game own a tower (a former dungeon site we've taken over), and are starting to settle into land ownership and such. That's not been a strong component of our play to date, but some of the players have recently begun talk of repairing and expanding the fortress, attracting followers, etc. So, I think I'm about to learn more about baronial holdings, Wilderlands-style. In our games BITD, my drowic PC had a lair below a cursed island IIRC, where his black dragons lived, and he stored most of his loot. Much of this was lost at some point after an unfortunate Tower draw from a Deck of Many Things and I don't think I'd ever gotten around to rebuilding the ruins. The elf F/MU/T carried around his lair through a portable hole modified into being the entrance to his portable dungeon level/lair (created by modifying a portable hole through the use of some wishes). So, neither of them had traditional land holdings with taxes, feudal obligations, etc., although the drow did belong to an order of wizards who could call upon him and vice-versa from time to time, and the elf did have a thieves guild that specialized in divination magic, spies, etc.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 5, 2012 13:11:41 GMT -6
This is a quick reply Rob---thanks for the pointer to the thread, which I'll catch up reading in detail later in the week. Specifically, what is the highest level you've ever played? My most-recent 2 PCs in Jon Hershberger's Wilderlands campaign are an elf MU/Thief of 11/12 and a human MU of level 10. My highest level PCs ever played were an elf F/MU/Thief of 5/16/17 (before high school up through college), and in college a drowic MU 17 (with a strong demonological bent) and a human cleric 12 or so, too, IIRC. Our PCs in Jon's game own a tower (a former dungeon site we've taken over), and are starting to settle into land ownership and such. That's not been a strong component of our play to date, but some of the players have recently begun talk of repairing and expanding the fortress, attracting followers, etc. So, I think I'm about to learn more about baronial holdings, Wilderlands-style. In our games BITD, my drowic PC had a lair below a cursed island IIRC, where his black dragons lived, and he stored most of his loot. Much of this was lost at some point after an unfortunate Tower draw from a Deck of Many Things and I don't think I'd ever gotten around to rebuilding the ruins. The elf F/MU/T carried around his lair through a portable hole modified into being the entrance to his portable dungeon level/lair (created by modifying a portable hole through the use of some wishes). So, neither of them had traditional land holdings with taxes, feudal obligations, etc., although the drow did belong to an order of wizards who could call upon him and vice-versa from time to time, and the elf did have a thieves guild that specialized in divination magic, spies, etc. Ah! An evil Drow with a proclivity for demonology? How very cool, Gro. In all of our countless phone calls over the years you never mentioned that. The portable whole concept via wishes is very imaginative, indeed. The "belonging to an order of wizards who could call upon him," etc., is consonant with HLP in the fashion as I now pursue it, and not so much with armies gallivanting about, which is grounded in the straight, and often passe, Medieval approach so overused trope wise. Not to poo-poo a good battle, but intrigue, popping about throughout dimensions and what have you, and finding strange demonic occurrences (and avoiding same), escaping with the strange book, and consorting with those figures behind-the-scenes who often were double-dealing or on the edge themselves, well that was gold, IMO, for the suspense needed to keep me as a player and our PCs at the edge of our seats. I hope you have some more commentary, Allan, as it would seem that you could offer some different perspectives on the matter, overall. RJK
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Dec 5, 2012 20:15:29 GMT -6
1) Probably about 5-10%. The possibilities were there, but if you start moving troops around you draw attention to yourself so you had best have a good reason for doing so. Good point. My players had to cope with logistical problems to support their small army (150 merc's at its peak), and were slowed down as they trekked through a fen, drawing many encounters. They did pretty well, though, both tactically and strategically, until encountering a dragon and suffering a TPK. But I can easily see high level play involving small armies on patrol and scouting missions, if nothing else. And what happens when a nearby lord or wizard forms a rivalry with a PC and decides to raid his castle? My low-level PCs were already setting the stage for this, by getting the permission of the emperor to clear an area of wilderness which was formally under the rule of a nearby count (who would no doubt seek to appropriate the territory for himself after it was cleared). I'll check it out. Delta has also designed a set of OD&D-compatible wargame rules ( www.oedgames.com/) but I've yet to buy, read, or use them. Interesting. I never seriously considered using written orders and simultaneous resolution. Our experience has indeed been that the biggish fights end quickly, one way or the other. But I am concerned about battles involving dozens of monsters or specials in addition to hundreds of rank and file. We're not there yet in our campaign but I can easily see it happening. FWIW, we've been using a simplified morale system based on the OD&D reaction table. Seems to work well enough. The PCs' henchmen broke after the first round of combat with the dragon and fled into the fen (only a few stragglers made it back to their home city...). The campaign revolves around Greymouth, a city of some 50,000 souls. There are a bunch of mercenary companies around who were formerly in the employ of the emperor and who are now available for hire. I had a few mercenary companies detailed but hadn't decided yet on the maximum number available. You make a good point and that needs to be worked out, as well as the possibility of new companies being attracted to the area. Thanks for all your ideas. Much food for thought.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 5, 2012 20:52:29 GMT -6
Jonathan:
Your game sounds like wild fun! Fens with armies marching through them, interface with the imperial seat about clearing lands, possible intrigues here and there, politics afoot and the possibility of glory.
Now that's a campaign. It sounds like you keep your players on their toes as well as expanding the territory in which they can play. Good balancing act. That's what creates masters at that level of play.
Continued good luck and I'm glad I could lend a few suggestions you found worthy of consideration.
Rob
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 21:34:42 GMT -6
" Fens with armies marching through them,"
Crom's hairy nutsack, didn't we already fight our way out of Teutoburger Wald once?
That's the worst part about this whole "Eternal Hero" schtick, you keep finding out that officers aren't any smarter than they were in the days of Sargon the Great...
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 6, 2012 0:27:41 GMT -6
@ Michael: Yes; and they found that out with the Florida Seminoles, too, but finally had their way with them.
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Post by grodog on Dec 6, 2012 14:40:58 GMT -6
Ah! An evil Drow with a proclivity for demonology? How very cool, Gro. In all of our countless phone calls over the years you never mentioned that. The PC group was a fun, planes-travelling "team" of world-savers united in common cause, but otherwise at each others throats throughout most of the adventures our DM crafted: we had paladins and good clerics rubbing shoulders with assassins, witches, and demonologists. I'll post some summary details in the Other Worlds thread after I dig up my PC notes about our planar explorations/adventures. I imagine that I didn't mention the PC because you didn't ask and it didn't seem terribly relevant---how many people really want to hear about yet-another D&D character's war stories, after all, when they're not those of Robilar, Mordenkainen, and the like? The portable whole concept via wishes is very imaginative, indeed. The "belonging to an order of wizards who could call upon him," etc., is consonant with HLP in the fashion as I now pursue it, [snip] intrigue, popping about throughout dimensions and what have you, and finding strange demonic occurrences (and avoiding same), escaping with the strange book, and consorting with those figures behind-the-scenes who often were double-dealing or on the edge themselves, well that was gold, IMO, for the suspense needed to keep me as a player and our PCs at the edge of our seats. Yes, that's definitely a good summary of our cohort's intrigues and activities---backstabbing each other to be the ones to save the world (and thereby bring our various patrons to the forefront of the world's new reality, of course ). I hope you have some more commentary, Allan, as it would seem that you could offer some different perspectives on the matter, overall. Thanks, I'll add some more to the Other Worlds thread for sure, and then chime in here with some further thoughts in a bit.
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Post by mgtremaine on Dec 6, 2012 18:32:54 GMT -6
[ I'll post some summary details in the Other Worlds thread after I dig up my PC notes about our planar explorations/adventures. I imagine that I didn't mention the PC because you didn't ask and it didn't seem terribly relevant---how many people really want to hear about yet-another D&D character's war stories, after all, when they're not those of Robilar, Mordenkainen, and the like? . I like story time! [Grabs popcorn get ready to read] Post away. -Mike
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 6, 2012 21:26:34 GMT -6
So here's the point: and as Mike nails it, above. It's about story. I was out today with K. at her therapy and talked with a lady who is always there around that time. Beverly. She always brings a book to read as she is waiting for her husband, but she always suspends reading to talk with me. The whole conversation got around to story. Story writing, story reading, but more importantly, story telling. Just like everyone, I like a good story, too. Before there were Robilars and Mordenkainens what was there? Part of this has to do with your assumption that your stories are not as worthy. I've found some great ones just in reading some of these posts. Our whole game depends upon it. It's the reason that I always open up my convention seminars with, "How many of you were read to as a child?" It's all about that enchantment and sustaining it in the players; and through them, in you as the DM. And for that, as well, any level of play will do just fine. Later! Rob
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 12:45:35 GMT -6
The PC group was a fun, planes-travelling "team" of world-savers united in common cause, but otherwise at each others throats throughout most of the adventures our DM crafted: Somebody fetch two beers. Ask the lad what he'd like, too. Beautifully done, Grodog... you've nailed a very, very important part of high level play. "Ten years ago the Evil High Priest of Nastyville cursed me with the Flaming Runs that it took me two years to get rid of, five years ago I cut his head off and threw it in a volcano and it took him a while to get better from THAT, let me tell you, but last year we fought side by side when the Horrible Uglies from Beyond Space and Time tried to destroy our universe. We may not like each other, but this is OUR universe. We're not done living in it yet."
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Post by grodog on Dec 11, 2012 1:15:00 GMT -6
LOL, thanks guys. OK, so for reference, here's the composition of our party of ne'er-do-wells after my first year of play or so within group (this, as well as my planar/adventures summary in the Other Worlds thread relied heavily on my notes from my TSR Permanent Character Record folder): - Iscladoc the Dark: NE drowic male MU 10 (quasit familiar, serves Fraz'Urb-luu) = me - Adressiak Nightshade: NE grey elven male Warlock 10 (an evil class based on the Wu Jen from Oriental Adventures; magical RavenStaff, a hefty item; wields "Vortex", a levels-draining sword ) - Dittio Morningstar: NG human male Thief 9 - Delilah: ? female human Witch 8 - Malachai Vordebrax (sp?): NPC; NE Cleric of Lurk, at least 9th level - Innish (surname forgotten): NPC; LG male cambion Cleric of Vangelis, at least 9th level (very tortured by his heritage/against demons/etc.) - Tobias Graham: NPC; CG male human MU, at least 10th or 11th level (rather whimsical and Dr. Who-like) - Xavier (surname forgotten): LG human male cavalier 8 - Morgan (surname forgotten): CN human female assassin 9 (worships Lolth) - Raoulf: CE human male assassin 9 (worships Nyarlathotep) - Jasper Andromeda: CG or NG human male MU at least 8; wields Queen Ehlissa's Marvellous Nightengale - Jarro: N jann paramander 8 - Lavanreal: NG human? senobite 8 (I have no recollection of what this PC was like)
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 11, 2012 1:41:14 GMT -6
What a grouping! I love it. I read your other post, as well, but am about to retire so I will save commentary for later.
Great posts!
Rob
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aramis
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Post by aramis on Dec 12, 2012 3:22:33 GMT -6
As a player: about 13th level. Worked up from 1st in a rather monty haul game. As a GM, AD&D: 15th level peak. Worked up from 1st. As a GM, advanced start, AD&D: worked a party form 9th to 17th. As a GM, Cyclopedia: 23rd level. Again, up from 1st. As a GM, T&T: 7th level. As a GM, Rolemaster: 6th level - TPK. As a GM, d20: 19th level - but party started at 8th, having been converted from Cyclopedia.
In general, all of these did use the Mentzer progressions... 1-3: dungeons near home base. 4-6: dungeons needing overland travel 7-9: dungeons needing overland travel and some politics 10-15: getting into the politics 16+: travelling the planes, major politics.
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 12, 2012 3:34:00 GMT -6
As a player: about 13th level. Worked up from 1st in a rather monty haul game. As a GM, AD&D: 15th level peak. Worked up from 1st. As a GM, advanced start, AD&D: worked a party form 9th to 17th. As a GM, Cyclopedia: 23rd level. Again, up from 1st. As a GM, T&T: 7th level. As a GM, Rolemaster: 6th level - TPK. As a GM, d20: 19th level - but party started at 8th, having been converted from Cyclopedia. In general, all of these did use the Mentzer progressions... 1-3: dungeons near home base. 4-6: dungeons needing overland travel 7-9: dungeons needing overland travel and some politics 10-15: getting into the politics 16+: travelling the planes, major politics. What a list! Are you still at it? Are there any current stories? Or have the ole gamers (like so many) drifted their own directions? Thanks for posting this. It's nice to know that the Basic to Master (or was it Immortals?) rules were at least responsible for some high level stuff. IIRC there is an old adventure written by Bruce Heard involving a vortex or something, goldish cover if memory serves correctly, for levels 18+ or thereabouts. I'm now starting to wonder how many higher level addies TSR published BitD. Rob
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Post by grodog on Dec 12, 2012 8:03:19 GMT -6
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 12, 2012 12:58:35 GMT -6
Well buckle my breaches! It was the Master and Immortal sets that spurred the seemingly, and only, real venture into progressively higher play, at least in print. Hmm. Mayhap I am in the wrong camp.... [*Robilar looks about...*] Now to post this at DF and find out what AD&Ders did. Thanks Gro, as always. RJK
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rjkuntz
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 12, 2012 20:03:51 GMT -6
Code Title Levels Author(s) Published Notes M1 Into the Maelstrom 25–30 Bruce Heard, Beatrice Heard 1985 M2 Vengeance of Alphaks 28–32 Skip Williams 1986 M3 Twilight Calling 30–35 Tom Moldvay 1986 M4 Five Coins for a Kingdom 28–32 Allen Varney 1987 M5 Talons of Night 20–25 Paul Jaquays 1987 These are the ones: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_modulesFrom Wikipedia: M1: "The player characters are playthings of the gods as the strive to increase their power. The kingdom of Norwold is plagued by a gray-green poisonous fog that kills everything in its path and acid rain that creates dry barren soil. The player characters are summoned to the king's court, along with other soldiers and fleets, with the intention of attacking the prime suspect country. While crossing the ocean, the fleet is caught in a maelstrom that is really a gate to the Star Kingdoms. From there, the fleet must struggle to reach the Magic Mist, a gate home to a strange island spewing gray-green mist into the air. On the island, the party confront the roaring demon Alphaks." Level 25-30! Now that's barreling onward! PS--quite an interesting assortment of authors... I used to own M1 but don't recall much about it. I'll query Bruce on Google+.
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Alex
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Post by Alex on Dec 19, 2012 10:24:37 GMT -6
I have little high level experience except for one shots. I like the concept. I was raised on Frank's BECMI sets and thought it made perfect sense...a natural evolution of the game to match the characters' growing up. Despite that, I think the highest level campaign character I've played was a 12th level wizard in 3E (started at 8th) and a 10th level gladiator in 2E (started at 5th). I've moved many times and have never been part of a gaming group that lasted more than 2 years, so I've had a lot of characters in the 2-9 range. Any chance I get to sign up for 12th-18th level games at NTRPG, I take. I have run a few games at about 10th level. Somehow that seems to be my sweet spot, that if I don't plan for a specific level of play the encounters naturally fall out to be appropriate for 10th level parties.
As for the late-game, I've had one character own a stronghold. He was a 10th level paladin in 3.5E (started at 5th) who took a ruined giant's tower by clearing it of an ogre mage and his humanoid forces. I then spent a game year coordinating the importing of supplies, labor and troops to guard them while they restored the tower (subdividing the two giant-sized levels into four human-sized floors), built a defensive wall and temple for my 8th level cleric henchman, and put out a call for pioneers to settle. As I recall I spent 150,000gp before anyone was able to settle, half of which was required for the small army and their support staff. Following completion the expenses were somewhere around 10,000gp per month for upkeep (armorers, smiths, artillarists, officers, soldiers, cavalry and stabling, castellan, cooks/maids/servants for my keep, etc), so I had to go hunt down a dragon lair for the dual purpose of filling the coffers and removing a threat to settlers traveling from civilization through 50 miles of wilderness to reach my stronghold. I will say that this one experience was one of the best I've had with the game and I'd love to do it again.
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