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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 17, 2012 12:32:24 GMT -6
Men & Magic, page 6:
"Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use (or for sale) such items as potions, scrolls, and just about anything else magical."
Monsters & Treasure, page 24:
"There is a 25% chance that any scroll of spells found will contain those usable by clerics."
And page 32:
"SCROLLS: All Scrolls are spells for Magic-Users, and regardless of the level of the spell they can be used by any Magic-User capable of reading them."
And no mention is made of clerics writing their own scrolls, even at high level.
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So how do people reconcile these passages?
One idea: all cleric scrolls are ancient scriptures, like true holy texts. The method to create them has been lost, they can only be found in ruins or the vaults of powerful high priest strongholds.
I'm also tempted to just allow first level clerics to scribe scrolls just like Holmes magic-users (yes, I know that by the book magic-users need to wait until they get to "wizard" rank to create any magic items, even scrolls). An extra cure light wounds or protection from evil are always handy. The fact that clerics can research new spells by the book (M&M page 34) also seems to at least be in line with that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 12:39:38 GMT -6
I've always just assumed the disparity between your two cites was an editorial oversight and allowed Clerics to scribe scrolls.
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Post by tombowings on Jul 17, 2012 12:56:38 GMT -6
I've never had a cleric interested in scribing scrolls like a magic-user, so this hadn't really come up for me. If it did come up, I would allow it, but only once the cleric is able to cast spells (2nd level).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 13:14:14 GMT -6
TBH? Like you, it has rarely come up IMC. Scrolls are relatively easy to come by, so it the time and effort to scribe them doesn't make it practical for PC clerics.
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 17, 2012 13:34:04 GMT -6
It does raise some interesting questions though, like would you allow a starting cleric to buy a scroll for 100 GP (assuming they rolled well for their GP)? Presumably they would be able to use it at first level even though they can't prepare any spells normally.
Also, assuming the "editorial oversight" theory is correct, which level should clerics be able to scribe scrolls? A "wizard" is an 11th level magic-user, but the highest cleric title is patriarch at level 8. Also wait until level 11, or allow it earlier at patriarch level?
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Post by talysman on Jul 17, 2012 14:16:15 GMT -6
My answer: Wizards create clerical scrolls, even if the can't cast clerical spells. They must research each clerical spell scroll separately to figure out how to make that scroll. The scroll is only usable by clerics.
There's some precedent with potions of healing, which are listed as something wizards can create, even though they can't cast Cure Light Wounds.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 16:27:29 GMT -6
I'd go with Patriarch. It fits the spirit of the rules as I interpret them.
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ralph
Level 2 Seer
Over the hill and far away.
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Post by ralph on Jul 17, 2012 16:42:37 GMT -6
There is a 25% chance that any scroll of spells found will contain those usable by clerics. ... All Scrolls are spells for Magic-Users... Scrolls will contain those spells usable by clerics 25% of the time, but are for Magic Users. How many spells appear on both classes lists? (I don't have my books available at the moment.) Could it be those spells that are on 25% of scrolls? |
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Post by aldarron on Jul 17, 2012 18:21:49 GMT -6
Since Cleric spells are different, I assume cleric scrolls are different too, and in much the same way. Meaning, a cleric spell is a kind of prayer or blessing, so a cleric scroll is merely that "prayer" formula written down. It will only "work" for a cleric, and once a day, but doesn't disappear like a magic spell. That's the way I've played it in the few times it has come up.
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 17, 2012 18:56:29 GMT -6
Scrolls will contain those spells usable by clerics 25% of the time, but are for Magic Users. How many spells appear on both classes lists? (I don't have my books available at the moment.) Could it be those spells that are on 25% of scrolls? Now that is an interesting idea. Here are the overlaps, from Men & Magic: Light (MU 1, C 1) Detect Magic (MU 1, C 1) Protection from Evil (MU 1, C 1) Detect Evil (MU 2, C 1) Locate Object (MU 2, C 3) Hold Person (MU 3, C 2) Continual Light (MU 2, C 3) Remove Curse (MU 4, C 3) Protection from Evil, 10' radius (MU 3, C 4) Am I missing any? |
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 17, 2012 19:07:46 GMT -6
Since Cleric spells are different, I assume cleric scrolls are different too, and in much the same way. I wonder though, are they really different? Consider: - The spell repertoire overlap, mentioned by ralph
- Clerics "gain some of the advantages from both of the other two classes" (page 7)
- The passage on page 34 about books of spells
- Clerics can research new spells the same way magic-users can
I think a textual argument could be made that both classes are using in essence the same kind of magic, but just belong to different traditions (black magic versus white magic or something similar). That being said, of course any of us can decide how we would like it to be, and then make it just that way. There are some fascinating corollaries here though, if we want to follow them down the rabbit hole. |
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Post by aldarron on Jul 17, 2012 19:22:50 GMT -6
There is a 25% chance that any scroll of spells found will contain those usable by clerics. ... All Scrolls are spells for Magic-Users... Scrolls will contain those spells usable by clerics 25% of the time, but are for Magic Users. How many spells appear on both classes lists? (I don't have my books available at the moment.) Could it be those spells that are on 25% of scrolls? Interesting idea. I think this is all of them: Light Continual light Dispell magic Detect magic Detect Evil Hold person Locate Object Protection from evil Protection from evil 10’ r Remove Curse So that's ten spells in common. There are 70 MU spells. That means 14% of MU spells are also Cleric spells. So if you doubled the chances for one of these spells being on your scroll, that would give a 28%. Fairly close to 25%. |
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Post by aldarron on Jul 17, 2012 19:45:05 GMT -6
Since Cleric spells are different, I assume cleric scrolls are different too, and in much the same way. I wonder though, are they really different? Consider: - The spell repertoire overlap, mentioned by ralph
- Clerics "gain some of the advantages from both of the other two classes" (page 7)
- The passage on page 34 about books of spells
- Clerics can research new spells the same way magic-users can
I think a textual argument could be made that both classes are using in essence the same kind of magic, but just belong to different traditions (black magic versus white magic or something similar). That being said, of course any of us can decide how we would like it to be, and then make it just that way. There are some fascinating corollaries here though, if we want to follow them down the rabbit hole. Clerics don't "memorize" spells from a spellbook. They pray/meditate for them. Although the 3lbb's are vague on the spellbook issue, neither Gygax nor Arneson ever had or intended Clerical spellbooks. Also, only clerical spells are reversible. So, to me that says it's a different kind of "magic" altogether, even though we have these 10 instances of similar effect. |
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 17, 2012 20:09:36 GMT -6
Interesting idea. I think this is all of them: Light Continual light Dispell magic Detect magic Detect Evil Hold person Locate Object Protection from evil Protection from evil 10’ r Remove Curse Ha, we wrote almost identical responses. :-) I don't see Dispell Magic on the cleric list, though. I suppose one could treat Dispell Evil as a different expression of the same spell. "Similar to a Dispell Magic spell..." and all. |
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 17, 2012 20:20:56 GMT -6
Clerics don't "memorize" spells from a spellbook. They pray/meditate for them. Reference? This is all I could find: "The number in each column opposite each applicable character indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) by that character. Spells are listed and explained later. A spell used once may not be re-used in the same day." (M&M page 19) Also, only clerical spells are reversible. "Note that under lined Clerical spells are reversed by evil Clerics." (M&M page 22) One could interpret that not as reversible, but different "reversed" versions of the spells (i.e., normal clerics can't cast cause light wounds even if they want to). Technically, the magic-user also does have two reversible spells: Transmute Rock to Mud Stone to Flesh |
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Post by talysman on Jul 17, 2012 21:02:17 GMT -6
Also, only clerical spells are reversible. "Note that under lined Clerical spells are reversed by evil Clerics." (M&M page 22) One could interpret that not as reversible, but different "reversed" versions of the spells (i.e., normal clerics can't cast cause light wounds even if they want to). That depends on how you interpret this note on the reversed Raise Dead spell, Finger of Death:"A Cleric-type may use this spell in a life-or-death situation, but misuse will immediately turn him into an Anti-Cleric." Does this only apply to Finger of Death, or can Clerics prepare the other reversed spells as well, but with a risk of turning into anti-clerics? And are anti-clerics unable to cast Raise Dead or Cure Light Wounds? |
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 18, 2012 8:36:56 GMT -6
By the way, have an exalt for that overlap idea ralph!
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Post by aldarron on Jul 18, 2012 13:50:52 GMT -6
Clerics don't "memorize" spells from a spellbook. They pray/meditate for them. Reference? This is all I could find: "The number in each column opposite each applicable character indicates the number of spells of each level that can be used (remembered during any single adventure) by that character. Spells are listed and explained later. A spell used once may not be re-used in the same day." (M&M page 19) Gary was asked about cleric spell books a few times and said he didn’t include them. Here’s a collection of his houserules cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/03/gary-gygaxs-whitebox-od-house-rules.html**EDIT: also, very very rarely will I look to anything in AD&D for clarification of OD&D, but this quote seems to be a reasonable exception "It is well known by all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic-users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities. By meditation and prayer the clerics recieve the specially empowered words which form the various spells...." Gygax, DMG:38 At the time of Gygax's writing, those experienced players could only have been OD&D players.** Arneson – There’s no mention of any kind of spellbook in either BTPBD or the FFC. The only written magic mentioned is scrolls. In the FFC there are alchemical “formula” scrolls and BTPBD (page 31) says “Only Magic-User spells will be found on scrolls, and only a Magic-User may employ them.” Since neither Gygax nor Arneson included clerical spellbooks, their clerics could not have used spellbooks to prepare spells. Also, only clerical spells are reversible. "Note that under lined Clerical spells are reversed by evil Clerics." (M&M page 22) Righto, only Anti-clerics cast reverse spells just as only lawful clerics turn undead. I also think an anti-cleric can cast any clerical spell they know, either normally or in reverse if it makes sense. Here is an example from an early tomb of horros game run by Gygax and written up in Alarums & Excursions #4 September 1975, by Mark Sawnson; “Our sixth level cleric walked into it. A female anti-cleric promptly emerged and threw a curse.” The character had walked through a gate that changed alignment and sex. Note that the Cleric spell “remove curse” is not one that is underlined as reversible in the books but Gary reversed it anyway. One could interpret that not as reversible, but different "reversed" versions of the spells (i.e., normal clerics can't cast cause light wounds even if they want to). Technically, the magic-user also does have two reversible spells: Transmute Rock to Mud Stone to Flesh Technically chanted in reverse, yes, but not reversed in the sense of the anti-cleric spells, which is also hinted at in that they aren't underlined. Note that in both cases two spells must be cast and the second, chanted in reverse, undoes or “counters” the effect of the first. Neither spell can simply be cast in reverse to turn normal mud into rock or normal rock into flesh. |
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Post by aldarron on Jul 19, 2012 12:40:21 GMT -6
Interesting idea. I think this is all of them: Light Continual light Dispell magic Detect magic Detect Evil Hold person Locate Object Protection from evil Protection from evil 10’ r Remove Curse Ha, we wrote almost identical responses. :-) I don't see Dispell Magic on the cleric list, though. I suppose one could treat Dispell Evil as a different expression of the same spell. "Similar to a Dispell Magic spell..." and all. Heh. crossposted. Right you are. Dispel Magic is not on the list. I "remembered" it being there but it turns out I was remembering it from Beyond This Point Be Dragons where it is listed as a 4th level Cleric spell. BTPBD makes a deal out of that because Clerics are supposed to have stronger magic than MU's. Anyway that means there are only 9 MU/Cleric spells in common, so doubling the frequency in which those 9 spells show up on scrolls would give them a frequency of 25.7%, which fits pretty nicely with Ralph's suggestion. |
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Post by Necropraxis on Aug 1, 2012 18:14:05 GMT -6
Hmm, I guess clerics don't need read magic to use scrolls? As it's not on their spell list.
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Post by aher on Aug 1, 2012 20:09:08 GMT -6
Monsters & Treasure, page 24: "There is a 25% chance that any scroll of spells found will contain those usable by clerics." I often look to Basic D&D to resolve these difficulties... Magical Item Subtable 2: Scrolls on p. 229 in the chapter on Treasure in the Rules Cyclopedia is used to randomly generate scrolls found by adventurers. You roll d% to find the type of scroll, the #of spells, and the spell levels of the spells. This table explicitly gives a 25% chance that the scroll found is clerical. While it is true that a number of magical spells and clerical spells overlap, the Basic D&D rules say of scrolls: Who Can Use: Only magic users, elves, and
10th level (or higher-level) thieves can use magical
scrolls; only clerics and druids can use clerical
scrolls; and only druids can use use druidic scrolls.
(RC, p. 234) However, there is one exception, namely protection spells. But these may be used by any PC who is literate: Protection spells: Anyone who can read--not
just spellcasters--may use protection scrolls; the
protection spell disappears as it is read aloud.
(RC, p. 234) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 23:29:31 GMT -6
However, there is one exception, namely protection spells. But these may be used by any PC who is literate: Protection spells: Anyone who can read--not
just spellcasters--may use protection scrolls; the
protection spell disappears as it is read aloud.
(RC, p. 234) Also in OD&D, Volume II: Monster & Treasures, p. 32 All "Protection"
spells can be used by any character who is able to read. |
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