|
Post by calithena on Jul 15, 2009 7:18:41 GMT -6
These are a lot of fun and still don't have a good general treatment anywhere I know of. The 'classics' for running them were
- Judges Guild CSIO or CSWE, The Free City of Haven, and a few others by Midkemia and Chaosium IIRC - gave you a developed city to use as a framework
- Midkemia/Runequest Cities and (again) Free City of Haven - awesome encounter tables
- Citybook I-VIII etc. - individual locales you could drop into your city at will - instant adventures/minicampaigns, really.
Don't know that we've seen as much of this lately, though the Warhammer 1e Enemy Within campaign had some good cities and city adventures. City GMing requires good use of GM 'art' - a city is like a dungeon and one 'o them indie 'relationship map' thingies combined, and it takes a variety of different techniques to run one well. As evidenced by the success of the above products in their time, a lot of people were able to figure this out, but I don't know that I've ever read a good general discussion of how to do this.
(Anyone want to write an article for Fight On!? Produce an OSR product of your own? Both?)
What are some new good cities and city adventures that we have seen recently?
|
|
|
Post by garish on Jul 15, 2009 16:15:08 GMT -6
Very good subject! INTRIGUE is the key to city adventures, in my experience. This is one of the things "The Enemy Within" did so well. The setting must be presented as believable, with a good core of mundane NPCs as part of the scenery. The players interaction with those NPCs will determine the flow of information they receive. Actions must have consequences: stopping a mugging by burning down the market is not going to cut it....
I think that CSIO was a huge help in that so many of the things a Referee needed include was part of that module. My group has done a few "Urban Sandbox" sessions using LL and CSIO. It has worked well with small groups, playing "private detective" in a medieval setting. Combat has been minimal, but problem solving and role playing have been great.
|
|
|
Post by Pierce Inverarity on Jul 15, 2009 18:38:25 GMT -6
The only recent city setting/adventure I can think of that's playable as is is Melan's Zothay, a Wilderlands city he posted on the JG site: www.judgesguild.com/fans/index.htmlIt's fantastic because, apart from being uniquely Melan, it also has a manageable size. Where time is short, the CS can be a scary proposition. There's also Dying Earth's City of Kaiin, a beautiful tome and a great idea mine. It would definitely be good if people published some new city-related material, theoretical or practical. Odd how that has fallen by the wayside so far. Hang on. A thought occurs... Cali, why don't you write up some nice, extensive encounter tables for Erelhei-Cinlu?
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Jul 15, 2009 18:51:46 GMT -6
City Adventure is my favorite form of adventure in D&D. I'm testing lot's of stuff in my current campaign and drawing many conclusion on how to get better at this, from my point of view. I had planned to post well thought out and playtest-oriented posts in my blog about City Adventure, but right now I have so little time...
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Jul 16, 2009 6:58:20 GMT -6
The only recent city setting/adventure I can think of that's playable as is is Melan's Zothay, a Wilderlands city he posted on the JG site: www.judgesguild.com/fans/index.htmlIt's fantastic because, apart from being uniquely Melan, it also has a manageable size. Where time is short, the CS can be a scary proposition. There's also Dying Earth's City of Kaiin, a beautiful tome and a great idea mine. It would definitely be good if people published some new city-related material, theoretical or practical. Odd how that has fallen by the wayside so far. Hang on. A thought occurs... Cali, why don't you write up some nice, extensive encounter tables for Erelhei-Cinlu? I forgot about Kaiin! That stuff was indeed excellent. Melan's as well. Good recs. I actually have some moderately extensive homebrewed EC encounter tables somewhere because I ran a campaign there back in the eighties (half-drow rebels). Perhaps in a future issue of Fight On!, if someone doesn't beat me to it...
|
|
|
Post by geordieracer on Jul 16, 2009 14:55:28 GMT -6
I did an interview with one of the founding fathers of British gaming last week (will be up on my blog in the next few days) and he totally slates CSIO for being unnecessarily detailed. He's against pre-scripted planned out cities:
'Wilderlands is fkn Freebird, no, Prog Rock, it's someone else's thing - not the mutant product of the interaction at the game table. DMs should let their nuts hang.'
|
|
|
Post by Pierce Inverarity on Jul 16, 2009 17:40:47 GMT -6
He doesn't mince his words, no sir... what's his name?
I'm wondering whether Necromancer's City of Brass mightn't be good, or even spectacularly good.
Could be that underneath all those stat blocks something really singular is buried that's worth excavating. The only OS(-ish) planar city, ruled by evil. And high-level evil at that.
|
|
|
Post by Melan on Jul 17, 2009 5:31:22 GMT -6
The trouble with city adventures is that they are (at least in my games) so heavily built on emergence and usually so tied to specific character goals that you can't distil them into a modular package. The best you can do is present the entire city (which can really get out of hand) or a package of a few relevant locations/personalities/customs/adventure possibilities.
The first solution is good for sandbox purposes but mighty work-intensive (that's why Zothay is the only one I have written up for publication, and why Khosura is the only other I have written up to that level - or almost to that level if we don't count the undercity) and may overwhelm people. The second solution is manageable, relatively easy to write, but isn't a true sandbox, only a possible springboard for one. One such city of mine was published in Fight On! #5, and another will be found in Knockspell #3.
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Jul 17, 2009 7:31:43 GMT -6
Good points, Melan. That's why I'm not sure I agree with the fellow about CSIO (or Haven, etc.) - in order to put out a city for publication and make it a sandbox you need a lot more detail than for a dungeon, but the GM also needs to understand that the detail is just what's going on, at whatever pace is useful or interesting, and that he or she can focus on whatever bits of it attract him/her and his players at the time.
That's why I think it would be cool if someone wrote a 'how to run city adventures' pamphlet and/or article for Fight On!
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Jul 17, 2009 9:53:22 GMT -6
I've always shied away from running city adventures. The city was just there to provide a base of operations and resupply.
And the city adventures I've played have all been urban dungeons -- the fact that they were in a city was incidental.
I, too, would love to see a "How to Run a City Adventure" article in Fight On!
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Jul 17, 2009 12:21:14 GMT -6
It would look great next to "Education of a Magic User!"
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Jul 17, 2009 13:33:00 GMT -6
Though not a general "How to Run a City" article, I submitted to FO!6 the Enharza city with a guide on how to run that city. It's underlying principles, methods and ideas could be used to create new cities. Basically, it's not a "city adventure" (no defined beginning, no defined end) but a "city setting", a "city sandbox". CSIO is like this, but it's size makes it a bit hard to manage. Mine is done like a WOHF wilderness map, but for a city:1) It's map, a small intro, some encounter tables, and a bunch of vaguely detailed locations. 2) You don't need "modules". You just explore and adventure in the city for it's own sake, like a WOHF map. The scenario is the place of adventure ITSELF. Random tables, improvisation, and "dropping" some modules into the scenario is what makes it work. 3) Instead of player's saying: " Hey, this mountains on the player's map look interesting, lets find some rumors about them and check them out", in the city sandbox player's say: " this wierd building on the map looks interesting, let's ask about and check it out". That is why you need that in your map, your "special locations" are distinctive from the rest of the mass of anonymous, of no note, buildings. Like in this map:¨ 4) the journey from one point of the city to the other is an adventure itself. You can roll for random encounters that can derail the "expedition" and take it to where not even the DM knows where it's going. 5) Instead of " we need to travel back to town A, across the dangerous forests, to speak with npc B", the players go: " we need to get back to temple X, across the dangerous slums, to speak with npc Z". So at many many levels, wilderness and city works pretty much the same. It's just in a "in-game" smaller scale. But in-game scale and time is an ilussion. You migh also say that cities are more populated than wilderness. But it's also quite of an "in-game" illusion. When they are in the wilderness and you describe: " you see a lagoon with many flamingos", is not very different than saying " you see a market with lots of miserable people". It's pretty much a cosmetic difference, but a cosmetic that really changes the whole feel of what the players sense. You can also have ready 2 o 3 more detailed adventures ("hired to killed a noble", "cleaning up a cult", "steal something from a mansion" with no defined location within the city, and no defined hook or backround, and you just "drop it" into the game when needed and where needed. No two DMs running will be running the same city out of the same materials. Pretty much what happens with the WOHF! So the condensed advice is: "create and run your cities, pretty much like you create and run your wilderness sandboxes". Here is how a session run like this looks like: zetaorionis-zulgyan.blogspot.com/search/label/City%20Adventuring
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Jul 17, 2009 14:11:30 GMT -6
Who published this?
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Jul 17, 2009 15:23:36 GMT -6
Flying Buffalo. I think at least some of them are still in print, too. Yep, just checked the website - 2 and 6 are out of stock but they have 1, 3-5, and 7 in: www.flyingbuffalo.com/prices.htm
|
|
|
Post by tavis on Jul 17, 2009 19:16:51 GMT -6
That's a great map and advice, Zulgyan! Thou art exalted.
I was just re-reading Domdaniel's Gate, Paul Jaquay's contribution to Citybook III. I've had it since the '90s but never used it in a game, and none of the author's names meant anything to me until recently.
One of the great potentials for city adventuring is setting up a shop, establishing a thieves' guild, owning property, etc. It's another parallel to wilderness adventuring, except that not having to build it yourself means that it can be achieved earlier in a PC's progress than creating a stronghold. You could roll for random events every season, like in a barony: a fire might threaten the neighborhood, a gang might want protection money, a corrupt noble might offer a risky opportunity for fast cash. And giving the PCs a fixed address and a stake in affairs makes it all the easier to enmesh them in plots (although I think it's a good idea to supply some mostly-trustworthy NPCs or retired PCs who can mind the shop & handle whatever plot developments the players don't want to pursue).
|
|
|
Post by geordieracer on Jul 18, 2009 3:31:35 GMT -6
'City Encounters should observe the Rule Of Three, there is always a bystander, an interupter or a distraction. The City is not a town and interactions flow at a different rate.
'Everyone knows something (their trade, gossip etc) and someone. Connections are being made and un-made all the time. The City is not static, there is always an influx and an exodus. Characters need to nurture and consolidate their relationships with others in order to be able to receive assistance in times of trouble.'
- Trevor Peach, 'The City Never Sleeps': The Cabal fanzine 1977
|
|
|
Post by Ghul on Jul 18, 2009 7:12:52 GMT -6
I have a few favorite resources when working with city encounters: The Town of Baldric Lankhmar (1e) CSIO (revised) Canting Crew
Zulgyan -- nice post.
|
|
|
Post by geordieracer on Jul 18, 2009 9:16:40 GMT -6
I've read Zulgyan's guide to running adventures in Enharza and it is spot-on, hits the nail on the head.
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Jul 18, 2009 13:21:46 GMT -6
Not familiar with this one, and when I google it I don't find it.
Who published this?
-----------------------------------
Mikedemia Press - Cities, is an out-standing resource for city adventuring. I usually use the "mission generator".
|
|
|
Post by Ghul on Jul 18, 2009 16:03:50 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Grognard on Jul 18, 2009 17:50:01 GMT -6
I agree that a city setting is essential to running a city adventure, because without the sand box it can really feel contrived. I love fantasy cities and wish there were many more of them, with adventures set in them as well. I snatch up every city setting for old school D&D that I can get my hands on.
I know a lot of people are hardcore about having a print product rather than a digital one, but IMO running adventures in a big city is a lot easier with a digital product. Using someone else's city in print form can be tough, with a lot of page flipping, since there is so much info (kinda like dealing with someone else's megadungeon), but with a pdf, you can hyperlink areas together, use search and find features, set bookmarks, and so on. The ease of navigation in a pdf can really increase the usefulness of a long product with has ton of info.
|
|
|
Post by Grognard on Jul 18, 2009 18:19:48 GMT -6
Also, T. Foster at K&K reminded me recently about the Cities supplement by Midkemia (later reprinted by Chaosium, and version for RQ was done as well I guess), and I have to say, if you don't have that supplement, you should!
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Jul 18, 2009 20:34:47 GMT -6
Building a city a sandbox scenario resulted in something very cool I had not experienced in previous campaings: the feeling of NON STOPING ADVENTURE.
When you get to town, it's not the end of the adventure. It might even be that it's just starting!
No reason why cities can't be challanging, dangerous adventuring envoiromentd like dungeons and the wilderness, instead of only "the place to rest and buy stuff".
|
|
|
Post by tavis on Jul 20, 2009 10:55:22 GMT -6
I've been hankering to introduce some city adventuring into my Caverns of Thracia campaign. The limiting factor is that exploration of that dungeon is still ongoing, and I'd like players to be able to move back and forth from city to dungeon without the Caverns suddenly becoming the suburbs of the metropolis that's less than a day's walk away. So I've been planning to introduce a means of planar travel by which the PCs can travel to and from the Nameless City in Limbo.
Originally, the extraplanar element was there to allow the city to be as teeming and Lankmaresque as I like (and also as magically exotic and high-powered) without the implications spilling into the mundane wilderness and small towns surrounding the Caverns. Recently it's also become a useful way to allow PCs to pass back & forth between one local campaign and another, since each game is in its own assumed reality.
Inspired by Zulgyan's post, when I introduce the Nameless City I'd like to sell the PCs a map of the city to empower & inspire their sandbox wanderings. Does anyone have suggestions? Here are some of the ones I'm thinking of:
- Lankmar boxed set. Good: Own it, has beautiful color and evocative-shaped buildings. Bad: Blank regions for geomorph tiles are nice for in-game discovery but less so as a player aid; locations are too iconic & recognizable to be re-purposed as a "Nameless City".
- City State of the World Emperor map. Good: Poster size, full of detail, awesome old-school pedigree. Bad: I just own the map, not the accompanying text (bought it loose at Lou Zocchi's booth last year) so I'd have to wing everything (although I guess I could use the PDF).
- Player's Guide to Kaiin. Good: Recommended upthread, I think I own it (bought it three-for-one at Titan Games booth last year?). Bad: Online reviews suggest it doesn't have a street-by-street map of the kind I'm thinking about giving the players.
- City of Brass (Necromancer). Good: Recommended upthread. Bad: Freakin' expensive, online review suggests cartography not its strong point.
- Sir Robilar's City of Brass (Kenzer). Good: Associated with Rob Kuntz. Bad: I have mixed experiences with Hackmaster stuff, Amazon customer review is poor.
- Secrets of the Lamp (TSR). Good: A TSR take on the City of Brass; I like Wolfgang Baur's work. Bad: Haven't heard anything about it; any experiences?
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on Jul 20, 2009 16:37:23 GMT -6
I can recommend Melan's "Zothay" and Geordie Racer's "Four Sword & Sorcery Cities".
|
|
|
Post by tavis on Jul 21, 2009 6:05:51 GMT -6
I'm reading Zothay with considerable pleasure. Ultimately I think it's more realistic / low-fantasy than I want for the Nameless City, but I'll certainly use ideas from it for city encounters.
I went through my gaming shelves and looked at some of the stuff in the above list. The maps of Kaiin in the Player's Guide are awesomely unusual and definitely make me want to say "Let's check out that building!" - unfortunately there's no city overview map. I saw a trio of Dying Earth maps at Warehouse 23, one of which was Kaiin, but it was sold out; if I can track that down, it might be the way I go.
The World Emperor map has less unusual buildings than I might have wished; the focal point is the palace/citadel, which is not surprising I guess. Also in that pile is a map of Jakalla, from Tekumel - its calligraphy style, the sub-islands, and some of the place names (like the City of the Dead) are pretty interesting but the map is dark and even though I bought it with a book, that book doesn't seem to have a map key!
Another strong contender is the map of Cauldron from Paizo's Shackled City adventure path - full-color poster map, distinctively shaped buildings, unusual layout, and existing map key (the 3.5isms don't bother me) are all pluses here.
|
|
|
Post by grodog on Jul 24, 2009 10:23:05 GMT -6
Other city supplements of possible interest: - Lankhmar City of Adventure (TSR)
- Thieves World (Chaosium, boxed set)
- The Free City of Haven (plus supplements, by Gamelords; various Thieves Guild materials would also fit in nicely)
- Cities, Tulan, Carse, Towns of the Outlands (Mikdemia Press but Cities, Tulan, and Carse were also reprinted by Chaosium)
- Bard's Gate (Necromancer Games)
- Marienburg and Warharmmer City (Games Workshop)
- FR1 Waterdeep
- Citybook series (Blade/Flying Buffalo)
- "Barnacus: City in Peril" (Dragon Magazine #80)
- Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins (WotC)
- Pavis and Big Rubble (Chaosium)
|
|