Joined: Apr 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 477 Karma: 20
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #1 on Jan 29, 2010, 8:30pm »
Like a lot of people, including you apparently, I read the D&D magic system long before I knew where it came from. It seemed illogical and created entirely for game reasons (why should a wizard forget a spell once it's cast?). I think it'd be a very flavourful system if it was explained properly, and it's a shame that the clones don't do this.
« Last Edit: Jan 29, 2010, 8:33pm by apeloverage »
Joined: Dec 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 87 Location: Binghamton, NY Karma: 5
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #2 on Jan 29, 2010, 8:50pm »
Thanks, dubeers! Sorry if the lead-up to the points I was trying to make came out a bit muddled. These ideas need refinement.
In fact, I don't object to spell memorization at all.
My problem is the conflation of the wizard's 'memory expansion' (through the mechanic of gaining memory slots as he moves up levels in standard D&D) with the number of spells in his spellbook. These things are tied together -- essentially one and the same -- in standard D&D. I advocate breaking them apart into two distinct elements.
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #3 on Jan 29, 2010, 8:52pm »
Sorry! I was attempting to edit my post to insert a missing comma and I accidentally deleted it! Here is the post, as originally typed (except for the inserted comma!) ...
I'd love some feedback on this before I go forward.
Since you've asked:
I'm unclear as to what, exactly, your objection to the current spells memorization is.
I'm also unclear as to exactly how your new system fixes that objection.
I have no idea by what you mean by "where flavor and crunchy bits meet". Is there any way you can just say what you mean without all the jargon? If you new system is intended for publishing it isn't too early to start working on clarity of writing.
On the other hand, your closing four bullet points seem to make a great deal of sense. I look forward to seeing how you develop this idea. Keep it up!
Joined: Nov 2012 Gender: Male Posts: 1,554 Location: Austin TX USA Karma: 151
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #4 on Jan 29, 2010, 8:56pm »
Nothing to apologize for, my reading comprehension may decreased after a long day at work (I take care of sick newborn babies and sometimes the stress of my job carries over).
Quote:
[My problem is the conflation of the wizard's 'memory expansion' (through the mechanic of gaining memory slots as he moves up levels in standard D&D) with the number of spells in his spellbook. These things are tied together -- essentially one and the same -- in standard D&D. I advocate breaking them apart into two distinct elements.
Ah! Now I see the light! Well, carry on. As I said, I'm looking forward to seeing the end product.
My problem is the conflation of the wizard's 'memory expansion' (through the mechanic of gaining memory slots as he moves up levels in standard D&D) with the number of spells in his spellbook. These things are tied together -- essentially one and the same -- in standard D&D. I advocate breaking them apart into two distinct elements.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that a caster can only have a number of spells in his book equal to the number he can cast; it's certainly not that way in later editions of D&D (I'm thinking of 3e here, where I got my start), and no one I know who played older versions of the game has ever suggested to me that they played this way either.
Is this something that I've just missed, due to my coming to the game from 3rd Edition? My wife's elf has a spellbook with probably 10+ level 1 spells in it, even though she can only prepare 4/day. Have I been doing this "wrong"? Not that I'm going to change how I do it or anything; I'm just curious about where this interpretation comes from.
Joined: Dec 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 87 Location: Binghamton, NY Karma: 5
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #6 on Jan 29, 2010, 10:14pm »
"I'm just curious about where this interpretation comes from."
Hi morandir!
In 1st Edition (see PHB p 26) the "Spell Progression" table for the M-U is dubbed "Spells Usable By Class and Level." One axis is the characters XP Level. The other axis is "Magic-User's Spell Level" with levels 1 to 9 making up the columns. The center of the graph is occupied by numbers that represent (a) the quantity of spells a character knows and (b) his memory slots. The (b) part here is more implied than overtly stated, which is a big part of the problem as I see it.
This conflation continued into 2nd Edition. I'm not sure about 3.x editions.
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #7 on Jan 29, 2010, 10:42pm »
Wow. I had no idea!
That being said, I certainly don't think there's any problem with letting a MU have more spells in his/her book than s/he has slots; it's worked perfectly well in all the games I've played in/run. Plus it gives MUs extra incentive to adventure, as they can receive spells as treasure (in the form of spellbooks/scrolls/etc).
Joined: Sept 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 124 Karma: 13
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #8 on Jan 30, 2010, 7:50am »
I started with Moldvay Basic and always assumed the number of spells a wizard knew and could remember were the same.
Anyway, like the blog posts (can't seem to comment on blogs at the mo, having browser problems) and I like the idea of a Wizard having a lot of spells in his spell book, but starting out as a neophyte sorcerer with a limited number of spells he can remember ata given time. A number that will increase with parctice and expereince.
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Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #9 on Jan 30, 2010, 8:14am »
My own education was muddled among editions and very long ago, so I don't know if I ever thought that a M-U could only know as many spells as he could cast. But I don't think I ever thought that.
One of the best pieces of advice on spell acquisition (which you call spell progression) came from the most Gygaxian DM I ever knew. He said, "If you want to get fireball, first you have to face a mage using fireball. There was no "automatic" acquisition in his world -- you had to beg, borrow or steal them.
I really like what you've done here, Thangobrind! Have an exalt for sharing this with us.
(Oh, and I'm so going to swipe what Booberry said in the comments, about mages reaching zero hit points...)
Joined: Apr 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 477 Karma: 20
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #10 on Jan 30, 2010, 8:50am »
I started with Basic, and assumed a Magic-User could only know as many spells as they could cast, but you got to choose new spells.
However, Labyrinth Lord says the DM might allow the characters to consult a guild and so get random new spells, or they might be completely dependent on finding spell scrolls.
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #12 on Jan 30, 2010, 11:48am »
I'm new to ODD and the retroclones myself, but I remember back in the day when we played 1e and 2e we separated spell memorization from spell acquisition. A mage could acquire more spells than he/she could memorize, and spells were purchased or stolen (in the form of scrolls or books, or sometimes a teacher). I guess this was just how it seemed it was supposed to be to us. It's also my preference.
I like the idea of a chart indexing intelligence vs. experience level, but I'm having a bit to trouble interpreting it. Is the number given in the chart the total number of spell levels that can be memorized? For example, a wizard with Int 18 at level 20 can memorize a total of 20 spell levels of spells (i.e. 20 1st level spells, or 2 9th level and a 2nd level, etc.)? Another thing, spell memorization appears to stop growing after level 18, no matter what the wizard's intelligence is. 20 is a nice round number, but it wouldn't hurt to bend the curve upwards a bit to 21 or 22, would it? Or am I just completely misreading the chart?
FWIW, I've been playing around with the idea of a slimmed down (and less powerful) Vancian system myself. When I read the Dying Earth books, it seemed that spells came in two varieties: Lesser spells and Greater spells. And it seemed that a wizard could memorize two Lesser spells for each Greater spell. So I was thinking a wizard had spell memory slots equal to their level plus their intelligence modifier. A Lesser spell would take one slot and a Greater spell would take 2 slots. In ODD, this means that a level 10 wizard would have a maximum of 11 spell memory slots, and could memorize up to 11 Lesser spells, or 5 Greater spells and one Lesser spell, or some variation thereof.
At any rate, I'm interested to see where this goes. Good work.
Joined: Dec 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 87 Location: Binghamton, NY Karma: 5
Re: Revising the Vancian Magic System « Reply #13 on Jan 30, 2010, 12:34pm »
Hi EdOWar
What I've done here is disentangle memory expansion from spell levels entirely. All memory slots have the same value, so according to this take there's no such thing as, say, a 5th level memory slot.
The way it works is: A spell of x level uses x memory slots to memorize. So the more complex the spell, the more space it occupies in the wizard's mind.
My chart makes wizards much, much weaker at higher levels than the standard system. Partly this is because I feel the class is overpowered, but I also want to introduce new ideas into the M-U mix, such as reliance on memory-enhancing items and drugs, as well as the use of daemonic familiars found in Vance's fiction.
« Last Edit: Jan 30, 2010, 12:44pm by Thangobrind »
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