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Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you have? « Thread Started on Dec 3, 2011, 11:18pm »
I have the following two volumes chosen to read first because Turin and Bombadil are favourites of mine among Tolkien's characters:
2:- The Book of Lost Tales 2 (1984) 6:- The Return of the Shadow (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.1) (1988)
So which volumes do you recommend and why? For my own curiosity note whether you have paperback or hardback volumes. I have hardback of (6) and paperback of (2) soon to be replaced with a hardback.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #1 on Dec 4, 2011, 12:07am »
I own all twelve volumes:
1.The Book of Lost Tales 1 (1983) 2.The Book of Lost Tales 2 (1984) 3.The Lays of Beleriand (1985) 4.The Shaping of Middle-earth (1986) 5.The Lost Road and Other Writings (1987) 6.The Return of the Shadow (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.1) (1988) 7.The Treason of Isengard (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.2) (1989) 8.The War of the Ring (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.3) (1990) 9.Sauron Defeated (includes The History of The Lord of the Rings v.4) (1992) 10.Morgoth's Ring (The Later Silmarillion v.1) (1993) 11.The War of the Jewels (The Later Silmarillion v.2) (1994) 12.The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996)
I own the first three in trade paperback (as opposed to mass market paperback) and the rest in hardback.
My unhelpful answer is to get all of them. I find Tolkien and M. A. R. Barker to be inexhaustibly interesting. Now let me try to be helpful:
I like the first four best. The two volumes of the Book of Lost Tales are considerably different than (but with significant similarities to) 1977's Silmarillion. Think of Tolkien's world shifted in the direction of Dunsany's Pegana. My favorite tale of the two volumes is that of the Fall of Gondolin, which (alas!) was never told in full in any revision.
The third volume is epic poetry, primarily of Turin and of Beren and Luthien. It's a different experience reading these stories in verse rather than in prose.
Perhaps my single favorite volume is the fourth. It contains the Quenta Silmarillion, which is the only version of the old myths that Tolkien ever finished. It was written a mere two years before The Hobbit was written, so it gives a kind of glimpse behind The Hobbit, showing the legendarium as it was at the time that Tolkien invented Hobbits. Also for some reason I find the Quenta to be the most pleasurable version of the old myths to read, though it abridges things by referring the reader to the Book of Lost Tales and to the Lays.
Volume 10 has an interesting section in which Tolkien considered how to fundamentally revise what I consider to be the weakest part of his legendarium: the fabulous origin of the sun and moon. In these papers, Tolkien noted that the Elves received their cosmogonic knowledge from the Valar, who were present at the beginning of the solar system. Obviously such angelic intelligences would know good and well that the sun and moon are not fruits from trees. Tolkien noted that such mythology which contradicts basic astronomical facts simply will not do. He made some passes at re-writing the tales of the very early days on the assumption that the knowledge of modern astronomy is true within the legendarium.
Thus, Morgoth makes use of smokes and volcanoes to spread darkness. Instead of the sun and moon being made from the two last fruits of the Two Trees, the Valar first reveal these celestial bodies to the Elves by the use of winds to clear Morgoth's foul smokes from the air. Etc. Unfortunately, Tolkien never got very far with this line of thought. I would prefer to get rid of the unscientific notions of the sun and moon, and also to jettison the idea of the earth originally being flat, and to drop the idea of the Morning and Evening Star being Earendil with a Silmaril rather than the planet Venus.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #2 on Dec 4, 2011, 12:13am »
I also have all 12 (plus the Index book, plus The History of The Hobbit). I LOVE the first two volumes. There’s basically no other place to get a real sense of Tolkien’s mythology. Other must-haves IMO are The Lays of Beleriand, The Return of the Shadow, Sauron Defeated, and War of the Jewels (but I would hate to have to NOT own the rest).
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #3 on Dec 4, 2011, 7:44am »
1.The Book of Lost Tales 1 (1983) 2.The Book of Lost Tales 2 (1984) 3.The Lays of Beleriand (1985) 4.The Shaping of Middle-earth (1986) 5.The Lost Road and Other Writings (1987) 6.The Return of the Shadow (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.1) (1988) 7.The Treason of Isengard (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.2) (1989) 8.The War of the Ring (The History of The Lord of the Rings v.3) (1990) 9.Sauron Defeated (includes The History of The Lord of the Rings v.4) (1992) 10.Morgoth's Ring (The Later Silmarillion v.1) (1993) 11.The War of the Jewels (The Later Silmarillion v.2) (1994) 12.The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996)
Here's the way it worked for me:
I picked up volumes 1-2 when they first came out. I found them to be interesting but, like most unfinished works or scholarly texts, I didn't do much with them at the time. Years passed and I picked up volumes 6-9 because they deal with the Lord of the Rings, which I love more than the Silmarillion. I picked up volumes 10-12 as they were published because I had enjoyed 6-9 so much. I decided that it was dumb to own 1-2 and 6-12 without 3-5, so I filled in the gaps with the remaining volumes.
I won't claim to have read them all cover-to-cover, and honestly I'm not a fan of poetry so I tend to skip those parts. What I do is use them as reference when I get in a Tolkien mood and just read whatever parts happen to interest me at the time.
For me, my favorite volumes by far are 6-9. I also would toss Unfinished Tales into the mix if you don't own that one. (I like to think of that as HOME volume #0.)
I own them all in hardback. I bought some of them as paperback and decided that for me I had to have the larger font size.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #4 on Dec 4, 2011, 8:56pm »
Ah the usual suspects.
In literature Im wary of secondary material, backing myself to get to grips directly with authors' works and on dvd I avoid behind the scenes spoilers and get-to-know the actors babble.
But these books are more important than that, aren't they? The Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin, published posthumously, indicate that Tolkien and/or his publishers underestimated many readers' desire for stories from Middle-earth or at least the manner in which those stories were told.
My ranking of interest in Tolkien's work is: The Children of Hurin The Silmarillion The Fellowship of the Ring The Hobbit, The Two Towers, the Return of the King
I would be pleasantly surprised if any stories from the series intrude into this order.
What fraction of your Tolkien reading time do you spend reading from the twelve volumes at the expense of the more familiar stories I listed above?
Perhaps my single favorite volume is the fourth. It contains the Quenta Silmarillion, which is the only version of the old myths that Tolkien ever finished. It was written a mere two years before The Hobbit was written, so it gives a kind of glimpse behind The Hobbit, showing the legendarium as it was at the time that Tolkien invented Hobbits.
Obviously such angelic intelligences would know good and well that the sun and moon are not fruits from trees. Tolkien noted that such mythology which contradicts basic astronomical facts simply will not do. He made some passes at re-writing the tales of the very early days on the assumption that the knowledge of modern astronomy is true within the legendarium.
I don't agree that the cosmology behind his myth needs bear any relation to our reality. Indeed that is doomed to be disappointing as it is not likely Tolkien would have gained the slightest insight into how our universe operates (insane rather than elegant) and his effort would seemed naive rather than poetic. I am all for 'the Evening Star being Earendil with a Silmaril rather than the planet Venus' in the sense that the myth hides some truth beyond our grasp. I may have to read this volume to see what Tolkien was worried about.
I also have all 12 (plus the Index book, plus The History of The Hobbit). I LOVE the first two volumes. There’s basically no other place to get a real sense of Tolkien’s mythology. Other must-haves IMO are The Lays of Beleriand, The Return of the Shadow, Sauron Defeated, and War of the Jewels (but I would hate to have to NOT own the rest).
I have The Annotated Hobbit. Would adding The History of the Hobbit not be beating that slender book to tedium and exhaustion?
My least favourite part of The Silmarillion is Ainulindale which I find a bit barking and unnecessary. Does The Book of Lost Tales vol 1 hold much of that sort of exposition?
For me, my favorite volumes by far are 6-9. I also would toss Unfinished Tales into the mix if you don't own that one. (I like to think of that as HOME volume #0.)
I have to agree about Unfinished Tales which I always read immediately after LotR with increasing admiration for Narn i Hin Hurin as his most adult tale.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #6 on Dec 4, 2011, 11:53pm »
I spend far more time picking through the 12 volumes than I do reading The Children of Hurin, The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, or The Lord of the Rings. It's been many years since I read LotR or The Silmarillion. I haven't re-read The Children of Hurin since I read it upon publication. I did recently re-read The Hobbit, though. I'd estimate that 90% of my Tolkien reading is from the 12 volumes plus the 2-volume The History of the Hobbit.
The first volume of The Book of Lost Tales has a chapter that is the precursor of the Ainulindale. It's about 20 pages long. I myself hate the Ainulindale. It's the single worst part of Tolkien's mythology. This kind of ties-in with my dislike of the cosmogonic parts of Tolkien's mythology. I much prefer his feigned history. If I had my druthers, the mythology would begin with the awakening of the Elves, and all the stuff before that would be quietly dropped. And of course the Elves would awake on Earth with the stars and the moon in the sky, and a few hours later they'd see the rising sun.
The story would pretty much gloss over everything they did before Feanor made the Silmarils. THAT is where the story starts getting interesting to me. I prefer the Valar way off in the background. For example, Ulmo's revelation to Tuor I find enchanting. But when the Valar are themselves the main characters, they seem lackluster to me.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #7 on Dec 5, 2011, 1:14am »
Tolkien demonstrated his understanding that the awful power of great beings is more effectively transmitted indirectly or diffusely through his handling of Sauron's presence in LotR.
Im not sure it is fair to criticise his staging of the Valar since that material was not for publication, and I strongly believe it is necessary for the author himself to have a clearer insight into the behavior and interactions of his great beings than he reveals to readers in stories at least to avoid inconsistency. In his world these beings did exist which is an unusual idea. Their actions are not the retrospective imaginings of god-craving desert tinkers.
I agree that the action kicks off with the naughty Noldor.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #8 on Dec 5, 2011, 1:33am »
Of the 12 volumes of tHoME I have paperback copies of the first 6, all bought individually over a period of several years mostly from thrift shops. I have neglected them, waiting for the day when I have all 12.
Tolkien demonstrated his understanding that the awful power of great beings is more effectively transmitted indirectly or diffusely through his handling of Sauron's presence in LotR.
Im not sure it is fair to criticise his staging of the Valar since that material was not for publication...
I agree regarding Sauron.
That's a good point regarding The Silmarillion and everything published after: Tolkien did not consider any of it ready for publication. For all we know, if J. R. R. Tolkien had lived long enough to see his First Age material published, it would have taken a considerably different form than the material that Christopher Tolkien has shared with us.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #10 on Dec 5, 2011, 4:22pm »
He put himself in a difficult position when writing his cosmological materials by having the elves be immortal and have some knocking around in the Third Age (Galadriel at least) who would have seen the death of the Great Trees of Valinor and seen the first rising of the sun and the moon as well as being relatives of Earendil.
In the real world races can have all kinds of fanciful myths about how various cosmological facts came to be as no one saw it but in Tolkien's Middle Earth it is all still encompassed within living memory (of a few people at least), something he seems to have realised rather belatedly.
He had a choice - make it all literally true, make the memories of elves a tad fuzzy and poetic beyond a couple of millennia or so, or rewrite the whole thing, and I'm sad he chose the last and least interesting option. If he had published the First Age material properly I'm sure it would have been interesting enough, but he should have had the courage of his fantastical convictions and stuck with the personal and active gods on a flat earth with flying fruit model of the universe.
People mention MAR Barker in the posts above as a world maker on a par with Tolkein (and I agree), but what about Terry Pratchett and Greg Stafford? Pratchett's tales are all about reconciling real world-ish myths and stories with a crazy improvised on the back of a f*g packet fantasy physics (slow light, octarine, inverse cube gravity, High Energy Magic, turtles, more turtles etc.) and Greg Stafford doesn't even bother with that. On Glorantha the secrets of the universe entirely depend on the last batch of heroes to trog through the Godtime readjusting mythologies as they go and several different interpretations of the same facts appear to be simultaneously true and at given time. Batnuts but interesting.
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #11 on Dec 5, 2011, 5:21pm »
I have the full set in hardcover, the first three also in paperback.
If you sit down and read the entire series from I - XII, you are in for the most incredible literary journey. But most people would get fatigued less than a quarter of the way through the series.
One source of tedium is the fact that the Silmarillion is repeated several times throughout the series, which is very interesting if you want to look up how a certain passage evolved or what Tolkien’s thoughts on any given topic were at any given time of his life, but otherwise very redundant. These are:
- The Sketch of the Mythology (1926 - IV) - Quenta Noldorinwa (1930 - IV) - The Annals of Valinor (early 1930s - IV) - The Annals of Beleriand (early 1930s - IV) - The Annals of Valinor (mid/late 1930s - V) - The Annals of Beleriand (mid/late 1930s - V) - Quenta Silmarillion (late 1930s - V) - The Annals of Aman (1950 - X) - The Grey Annals (1950 - XI) - Quenta Silmarillion (1951 - X/XI) - Quenta Silmarillion (1958 - X)
What’s interesting about the Silmarillion is that Tolkien wrote it for the same reason he wrote the LotR Appendix. It’s a “Sketch” of the overall history that was meant to accompany the full versions of certain “Great Tales.” What turns some (not all!) people off from the Silmarillion (usually Christopher’s 1977 version) is that reading it without reading the actual Great Tales is like reading the LotR Appendix without reading the actual LotR!
Now, I will be perfectly honest—I usually skip the Silmarillion altogether when I’m looking to read Tolkien, and go straight to the good stuff. I love Tolkien’s descriptive prose, compelling characters, and fascinating world, as revealed in his epic but very personal stories. The Silmarillion just doesn’t cut it, on that level. If you liked “The Children of Húrin” and want more, there is plenty of it in HoMe. As long as you don’t get stuck on incompleteness or incompatability and just enjoy what the man wrote.
So just what are these stories? Here’s how I break it down in my head:
1. The Tale of Ælfwine2. Tales of Valinor3. Tales of Beleriand
a. Gilfanon’s Tale/Athrabeth Finrod ah Andrethb. The Lay of Leithianc. Narn i Chîn Húrind. The Wanderings of Húrine. The Nauglafringf. The Fall of Gondolin
4. The Hobbit5. The Lost Road/Notion Club Papers/Tales of Numenor6. The Lord of the Rings
1. THE TALE OF ÆLFWINE - The framing story of Tolkien’s mythology, which leads it into British pseudo-history (Ælfwine the Mariner being the father of Hengest and Horsa, who travels to Elvish isle of Tol Eressëa, which becomes the British Isles). Although Tolkien never abandoned this character in his own mind (see #5, below; and Ælfwine is still the fictional author/translator of many of Tolkien’s later essays in the 1950s), overall he never rewrote the tale from where it stood in “The History of Eriol or Ælfwine” in II and “The Cottage of Lost Play” in I (as well as the beginning and end of each tale in I and II).
2. TALES OF VALINOR - Tolkien’s “high mythology” of the wars of the gods and the adventures of the Elves in the Undying Lands. Chapters 2-9 of I are the only full treatment of this material, which is some of my favorites of the entire œvre. The only substantive additions to this material are in X, most notably “The Story of Finwë and Míriel” and some very drastic “round earth” changes to the mythology. XII also contains an interesting tale about the Sons of Feanor, in “The Shibboleth of Fëanor.”
3a. GILFANON’S TALE in I and ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH in X – fascinating explorations of the awakening of Men.
3b. THE LAY OF LEITHIAN in III (incomplete … can be rounded out with the prose “Tale of Tinúviel” in II) is probably the single most iconic Tolkien story.
3c. NARN I CHÎN HÚRIN in UT (incomplete … can be rounded out with “The Lay of the Children of Húrin” in III).
3d. THE WANDERINGS of HÚRIN in XI is an awesome sequel to the above.
3e. THE NAUGLAFRING is chapter 4 in II, but you will want to start from the last few pages of chapter 2, “Turambar and the Foalókë.” A personal favorite
3f. THE FALL OF GONDOLIN in II — If I had to name a single masterpiece, this would be it.
4. THE HOBBIT - Someone asked whether The History of The Hobbit adds much. I think it puts The Hobbit in a whole new light, showing it as a sequel of sorts to the above materials, especially 3b and 3e. If that sounds interesting to you, definitely check it out.
5. THE LOST ROAD etc. - The most obscure part of Tolkien’s writings, the stories about Time Travel and Atlantis, are found in V part 1 as well as IX part 2-3. Personally, I find the versions in V rather fall flat but the versions in IX are awesome and NOT to be missed. Other fascinating Númenorean stories are “Aldarion and Erendis” from UT and “Tal-Elmar” from XII.
6. THE LORD OF THE RINGS - I love VI, since most of the book deals with some very major fluctuations in the characters of the first half of The Fellowship of the Ring, and as a result, some very different stories are told along the way, which I find fascinating. But I skip the rest of “The History of The Lord of the Rings” (VII, VIII, part of IX) because it doesn’t really bring any new stories to the table. Exception: “The Epilogue” from IX. There are also lots of things relating to the LotR Appendices which never made it into the book, i.e. most of UT and “Of Dwarves and Men” in XII. Finally, don’t miss the LotR Sequel (as far as it goes) from XII (“The New Shadow”).
Hope this helps, and let me know of any questions!
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
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Re: Which volumes of The History of M.E. do you ha « Reply #12 on Dec 7, 2011, 2:37am »
Falconer, you have made a useful summary analysis of the series there and I expect I will return to this thread after reading some more of the volumes I have ordered. Often when presented with a poorly differentiated mass of material imposing some sort of intelligible structure on the collection can make the difference between reading it and not.
I have a different appreciation for and understanding of the Silmarillion as published in 1977.
First of all let me point out that we are a strange class of reader - long time Dungeon Masters - who can read gaming campaign material and develop our own with an enjoyment which is in some measure similar to reading a novel. We have a facility for imagining one or more narratives from a collection of notes, descriptions and essays. Where others might cry, 'where is the story here?' we take pleasure in completing the picture ourselves, imagining scenarios merely implicit in the material.
However I think it is important to distinguish between literature and those collections of material which we are used to turning into a satisfying whole in our minds. Of the latter, Stafford's Glorantha and Barker's Tekumel are good examples but it is likely that much of Tolkien's material in the HoME, even if it reads superficially as story, is also material of this kind. Tolkien wrote in story form with an ease which we might sketch notes for our campaign and for most of his unpublished work he clearly saw these stories as notes to be worked on again and again.
In contrast The Hobbit and The LotR are clearly literature, they are finished, and finally I can get to my point. I believe The Silmarrilion as published in 1977 is literature too and different in kind to the working story notes which are typified by the majority of the HoME material. My understanding is that Tolkien had an idea of the literature which might be produced from all his story notes, and that literature would be The Silmarillion. If he had lived for another fifty years, The Silmarillion would have grown much larger, fed by more finished material from the HoME series but what had been published in 1977 would remain intact or largely unchanged in this notional future Silmarrilion.
At least this is my understanding as someone who sees a strong distinction between literature and working story notes.
Quote:
If you liked “The Children of Húrin” and want more, there is plenty of it in HoMe.
What I like most about The Children of Hurin is the character of Turin which is unlike any other he wrote about and the unrelenting tragedy of the tale which again stands in stark opposition to the tone of the LotR even granting the overall melancholy ebb of his entire history. I don't expect to find a story remotely of that calibre in the series but will be delighted if I do
What I like most about The Children of Hurin is the character of Turin which is unlike any other he wrote about and the unrelenting tragedy of the tale which again stands in stark opposition to the tone of the LotR even granting the overall melancholy ebb of his entire history. I don't expect to find a story remotely of that calibre in the series but will be delighted if I do
Kent, based on this I would recommend "The Wanderings of Hurin" (in Vol 11). It's a fairly well-developed continuation of the Turin story, picking up with Hurin after he is released as an old and bitter man. Some thought it should have been included in the Children of Hurin. IIRC, a little piece of it was included in the published Silmarillon.
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What I like most about The Children of Hurin is the character of Turin which is unlike any other he wrote about and the unrelenting tragedy of the tale...
Wait until you read the story notes that J. R. R. Tolkien wrote in the early 1970s that begin, "The Tale of Turin is too melancholy. Instead of unrelenting tragedy, the story must be revised to be unrelentingly happy..."
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