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What I wish Star Wars had become. « Thread Started on Sept 13, 2010, 4:08pm »
My single favorite movie is the 1977 Star Wars film. I wish we had eleven more just like it, only better.
The old Flash Gordon serials were typically 12 episodes long, so back in late 1977/early 1978 Lucas planned on there being 11 more Star Wars films. Each would be relatively self-contained, rather than a part of an over-arching saga. (Think of the old James Bond films, and you'll know what I mean.) George planned on hiring 10 other directors, one each to direct Star Wars 2 through Star Wars 11. Then George himself would return and direct Star Wars 12, the last of the bunch. As he said:
"It's a competition. I'm hoping if I get friends of mine they will want to do a much better film, like, 'I'll show George that I can do a film twice that good,' and I think they can, but then I want to do the last one, so I can do one twice as good as everybody else." (from an interview by Paul Scanlon, published in Rolling Stone, August 25, 1977)
I'd like to see Luke, Leia, Han, Chewbacca, C-3PO, and R2-D2 cruise the galaxy in the Millennium Falcon, having tons of mostly unrelated adventures on a variety of alien worlds.
I like to think of the Empire being destroyed along with the Death Star. Only the fear of the Death Star kept the systems in line, and once that was gone, plus with the outrage over Alderaan's destruction, plus the outrage over the disbanding of the Senate, the Empire would have collapsed, to be replaced by the Old Republic. After all, the Old Republic had been around for millennia, while the Empire for only decades. The Empire would be a tiny, anomalous blip in a vast, Republican history.
Thus Star Wars 2 and following films wouldn't just be the same "Rebels vs. Imperials" over and over and over. Instead, Luke and his friends would have a multitudinous variety of adventures in an adventurous galaxy. The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.)
I'd keep the whole thing pre-adolescent. We don't need any romance between Leia and Han, or between Luke and Leia. They can all just be adventuring friends. I for one would not miss the smooches.
To cap it all off, I'd like for Star Wars 12 to not have a bittersweet ending AT ALL. It's fun and rollicking the whole way through. The film could end with our heroes all on the Falcon as she jumped to light speed, in search of their next adventure. Instead of THE END, on the last screen, it could say THE ADVENTURES NEVER END...IN YOUR OWN IMAGINATION (or something less corny).
Of course, this is all impossible. But I can get into transports of joy thinking how cool it would be to own a set of 12 dvds, each with a Star Wars film on it as described above, and each one better than the one before. A solid 24-hours of space-fantasy cinema.
You should watch the Clone Wars cartoon. It's every bit the pulp serial you describe.
I largely agree. I have some issues with the series, but, by and large, it's a pretty well done space opera that clearly takes a lot of inspiration from Saturday matinee serials from the 50s, right down to the melodramatic voice-overs that start each episode, setting the scene for this week's adventure. It's silly, over the top fun, especially if you can divorce it from the rest of the Star Wars media franchise and just enjoy it on its own merits.
The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.)
I like a lot of what you outline but that would be a waste of one of the greatest villains of all time (at least before pod racing was invented). That would be like Batman catching the Joker in issue #2 and leaving him behind bars for the rest of the run. It's nice to think of a 12-hour timeframe in which to develop other cool villains, of course, but Vader should be the big finale.
I'd keep the whole thing pre-adolescent. We don't need any romance between Leia and Han, or between Luke and Leia. They can all just be adventuring friends. I for one would not miss the smooches.
The other day when I found Splinter and the other books I mentioned in my post, I was looking at the cover blurb on an EU novel. I stopped reading at "burning passion". Really
The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.)
I like a lot of what you outline but that would be a waste of one of the greatest villains of all time (at least before pod racing was invented). That would be like Batman catching the Joker in issue #2 and leaving him behind bars for the rest of the run. It's nice to think of a 12-hour timeframe in which to develop other cool villains, of course, but Vader should be the big finale.
I see where you are coming from, and I'd be cool with that.
I love the way Darth Vader is portrayed in the original film:
1. He yells at people. Contrast that with the cool customer of ESB.
2. Imperial officers regularly tell Vader off. Contrast that to the feared Vader of later films.
3. Vader isn't afraid to do a mincy little stance when talking to Princess Leia in their first meeting. Contrast that with the more staid Vader of later movies.
4. Vader isn't really part of the Empire in SW. He is a sort of bounty hunter employed by Tarkin to find the Death Star data tapes. Contrast that with Vader as the Emperor's right-hand man.
5. Vader isn't anybody's father.
Another note: When Lucas changed Vader from a bounty hunter into the Empire's number 2 man, Lucas found that he needed a bounty hunter. Thus entered Boba Fett to partially take the original Vader's place.
I can't remember where I was going with all this, but there it is.
2. Imperial officers regularly tell Vader off. Contrast that to the feared Vader of later films.
In the book at least there are several references to their fear and nervousness, especially after he chokes Tagge. Tarkin is not afraid of him, which I find interesting (and I mentioned in Fin's thread about his old ODD/SW game). Tarkin's not part of the military hierarchy, but Vader acknowledges Tarkin's authority. Presumably because Tarkin is the Emperor's direct appointment, but there are a couple of other spots in the book where Vader talks sarcastically/dismissively about the Emperor in front of Tarkin. It's a puzzlement never repeated in the other films- Moff Jerjerrod is totally afraid of him in RotJ, but between script drafts and novels it's hard to tell whether he's really a Moff in the film or just an elevated military commander.
4. Vader isn't really part of the Empire in SW. He is a sort of bounty hunter employed by Tarkin to find the Death Star data tapes. Contrast that with Vader as the Emperor's right-hand man.
Where is this from? In the book there are several references to the Emperor "inflicting" Vader on "us" (the military brain trust).
FWIW, ESB is my favorite of the films, and I actually prefer the "apology accepted, Captain Needa" as the bodies are dragged off to the yelling and ranting. These days I rationalize the kow-towing to the Emperor in the second two films as part of "Vader's plan" described in SW, which isn't ever expressly detailed but seems to involve replacing the Emperor and training his own dark side apprentices.
I think it would have been interesting if Vader's last/dying line had been "Now we can rule the Empire as father and son! Go take command of the Rebel fleet, and we can have peace in the galaxy" rather than "go tell your sister I'm nice".
2. Imperial officers regularly tell Vader off. Contrast that to the feared Vader of later films.
In the book at least there are several references to their fear and nervousness, especially after he chokes Tagge. Tarkin is not afraid of him, which I find interesting (and I mentioned in Fin's thread about his old ODD/SW game). Tarkin's not part of the military hierarchy, but Vader acknowledges Tarkin's authority. Presumably because Tarkin is the Emperor's direct appointment, but there are a couple of other spots in the book where Vader talks sarcastically/dismissively about the Emperor in front of Tarkin. It's a puzzlement never repeated in the other films- Moff Jerjerrod is totally afraid of him in RotJ, but between script drafts and novels it's hard to tell whether he's really a Moff in the film or just an elevated military commander.
4. Vader isn't really part of the Empire in SW. He is a sort of bounty hunter employed by Tarkin to find the Death Star data tapes. Contrast that with Vader as the Emperor's right-hand man.
Where is this from? In the book there are several references to the Emperor "inflicting" Vader on "us" (the military brain trust).
Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Star Wars definitely has stuff in it that isn't in the film. The only reference in the film to the Emperor is Tarkin's remark about the Emperor dissolving the Senate. Of course, at this time the Emperor was conceived as an ineffective politician rather than as a Sith mastermind. (His tongue-in-cheek name was Cos Danuts [cause of the nuts], and he was thought of as similar to Richard Nixon.)
Taking the 1977 Star Wars film in isolation from any other book or movie, I think a good understanding of it is that Vader is not a part of the chain of command. Obviously Tarkin could boss him around. Various Imperial officers were snippy with him. The one time Vader struck back at one was with the Force, not by pulling rank.
Vader's job in the 1977 film was to find the stolen data tapes. That, coupled with Tarkin holding his leash, leads me to consider Vader a bounty hunter of sorts employed by Tarkin.
I know that Lucas was surprised by Vader's popularity. He didn't intend for Vader to be the huge figure he later became. He was merely the number two villian of the show. In fact, until relatively late in the revision process, Vader's ship got blown-up over the Death Star at the end, rather than spin into space.
The only reference in the film to the Emperor is Tarkin's remark about the Emperor dissolving the Senate. Of course, at this time the Emperor was conceived as an ineffective politician rather than as a Sith mastermind. (His tongue-in-cheek name was Cos Danuts [cause of the nuts], and he was thought of as similar to Richard Nixon.)
I figured you were working from scripts or some other behind-the-scenes source. Those pesky ret-cons started right from the beginnning I'm curious to see what Foster did in "Splinter", although I'm guessing there's not much exposition of Imperial structure.
I think the emperor was depicted as a ruthless, manipulating politician, at least in the book, but agree no mention was made of his sith-ness. As I noted in the other thread there is also mention of "emperorS" which is another interesting aspect.
Tarkin holding his leash, leads me to consider Vader a bounty hunter of sorts employed by Tarkin.
I read and heard that as an insult by Leia both implying Vader is a pet and rubbing his mechanical face in his status as subordinate/thrall/liegeman to the Emperor and Moffs. For whatever actual reason that was (social status? stigma as a former Jedi?)
I'm curious to see what Foster did in "Splinter", although I'm guessing there's not much exposition of Imperial structure.
Not much at all. Stormtroopers were there, but mostly as spear carriers.
Vader revealed he knew who only vaguely who Luke was (a farmer from Tattooine) and that Luke was responsible for destroying the Death Star.
Luke seemed to channel Obi-Wan during his battle with Vader, and we saw some uses of The Force we didn't see during the film. The creation of kinetite, for instance, a slow moving object that contained a great deal of kinetic energy.
There were also further hints of a growing romance between Luke and Leia. Since Lucas gave Foster direction for this novel this is another indicator of a massive retcon of the whole twins and Vader/Anakin thing.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.)
I like a lot of what you outline but that would be a waste of one of the greatest villains of all time (at least before pod racing was invented). That would be like Batman catching the Joker in issue #2 and leaving him behind bars for the rest of the run. It's nice to think of a 12-hour timeframe in which to develop other cool villains, of course, but Vader should be the big finale.
I'd have to second (or third) this. Saving Vader for the big finale in the 12th movie would be the best, imo. He can be in the background, too, in the other movies, maybe show up in a couple of them, just so we don't forget about him. But his downfall would come in the 12th movie. It could have been epic I tell you...EPIC!
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: What I wish Star Wars had become. « Reply #14 on Sept 18, 2010, 6:41am »
Another +1 to this from me!
I always wished that Lucas would have cranked out a zillion movies just like Star Wars. I mean, Empire Strikes Back was a classic movie, but it was very different in style from the original.
I honestly had this same gripe with Pirates of the Caribbean, which I see as this generation's Star Wars. The first movie was action-packed, didn't dwell in angst, and was just a heck of a lot of fun. Then for movies 2-3 they had to fill in symbolizm, characters agonizing over things, complex plot twists...
Just stick to the simple black/white "us versus them" of the original. I don't need "stormtroopers are people, too" or "Vader was just misunderstood" kinds of movies.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
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to the yelling and ranting. These days I rationalize the kow-towing to the Emperor in the second two films as part of "Vader's plan" described in SW, which isn't ever expressly detailed but seems to involve replacing the Emperor and training his own dark side apprentices. 
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