Topic: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? (Read 1,664 times)
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Thread Started on Feb 5, 2011, 7:01am »
I've been putting a lot of thought into SciFi RPGs recently. What is it about SciFi RPGs where they feel the need to insert a skill system?
In other words, why can't we have "OD&D in Space" or "C&C in Space" or "AD&D in Space" with just a simple class system? Each character class would have a short list of things it could do, much the same way that fighters or clerics or magic-users or thieves each have a short list of things it can do.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me like there are certain things in a SciFi setting which could be universal, like piloting a ship. Kind of like in a modern setting where one can drive a car or use a computer or use a microwave oven, do we need a special skill for this?
I'll be interested in other's views on this. What am I missing?
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Nothing, from my perspective anyway. So far as I can tell, the perceived need for skills in SF is solely a function of RPG history. Every successful SF RPG has had skills, so therefore most people simply assume that they're required for proper genre emulation.
Absent skills, character classes seem the most obvious way to differentiate character abilities/proficiencies and that's where it gets tricky. Science fiction is a very broad genre, so finding similarly broad archetypes on which to build classes isn't easy. That's why I think a skill-less, class-based SF RPG needs to be a bit more narrow and focused on a particular type of SF to accommodate the mechanics of classes better.
But I see no good reason why a SF RPG needs skills other than creative inertia: Traveller had skills in 1977, so all SF RPGs need them too.
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #2 on Feb 5, 2011, 9:52am »
It seems to me one could take Traveller (for instance) and make the various professions analogous to D&D classes. Scout, Soldier, Pilot, Mech' Driver, etc.
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #3 on Feb 5, 2011, 12:09pm »
The first thing I thought of when I read this post was Star Trek.
Think about the characters. What exactly is Kirk's score in, say, Navigation? Is he really that much better than Chekov? Either one gets the Enterprise where it needs to go.
And Scotty can fix anything. Sure, he's better than other engineers, but that's because he's higher level.
Now Star Trek wasn't written as a game. It was written as drama. So the things it concerned itself with were dramatic. A game needs to concern itself with things that are playable. Skills offer designers a way to do this. It gives the player a distinct "succeed or fail" point that can affect their play session. Plus, players like to roll dice. It gives them the illusion of fairness (much more so than a referee simply saying "no, that doesn't work").
It probably isn't necessary. But you'd have to come up with some other way to adjudicate success or failure. Comparing levels might work, comparing attributes. A variation on the Amber Diceless system (which I've never played or read but have always heard good things about).
Another thought: Skills give a measurable rating to one's abilities. And science is all about quantifying things, so it seems to fit. That may be a factor in people's decisions.
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #4 on Feb 5, 2011, 12:09pm »
Imagine if D&D put more focus on swords, armor, wagons, horses, lanterns, etc. than it did on the player characters.
Well, that's what I see all too many sci-fi RPGs do. They put the focus on the high-tech stuff, and the PCs are merely percentage chances to make the high-tech stuff save the day.
Bah.
If I were to referee a sci-fi campaign, I'd do something similar (but not identical) to what Castles & Crusades does:
1. Roll your six abilities, and then arrange them to taste.
2. No character classes. Everyone is a human being.
3. I'm too lazy to track experience points. Thus every character would gain a level after X number of sessions.
4. You want to try to do something? Then I as referee would make a judgment call as to what ability that fell under, whether strength, intelligence, or etc. Then you would subtract your character's level. Then I'd apply a penalty or bonus depending on how hard I judged the task to be. Then the player would have to roll that number or lower on a 20-sider. For example:
"I'm going to pilot the one-man-speeder between those two trees standing close together."
"Um, they are so close together you'd scrape the paint off even if you succeeded."
"I'm going for it."
"OK. What's your dexterity?"
"15."
"You're level 6, so that brings your target number down to 9. This is a tricky move, especially since you're going so fast. You have a +4 penalty to that. Thus, you need to roll a 13 or higher."
<<rolls>> "18! No problem."
This basic procedure could be used to cover anything that a character attempts.
Falconer Level 9 Sorcerer Cleric of OD&D member is offline
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #5 on Feb 5, 2011, 12:12pm »
The thing is that OD&D classes (except the Thief) don’t bother measuring the relative probability of a character to perform a mundane task. Each class writeup lists magical/supernatural things the character can do above and beyond all the day-to-day things that every character is assumed to be able to do (light a fire, climb a rope, swim, read their language). Only the fighter has no supernatural abilities beyond just being the best fighter.
Which is why I think to construct spacefaring classes you have to pay close attention to your source material and gather a list of “uncanny” abilities possessed by the characters upon which you are modeling classes. You can have one “fighter” class (soldier/security) that is just better at combat than everyone, but you can’t design all the classes that way (this guy is slightly better at x). Spock, McCoy, and Scott from Star Trek are “miracle workers” at their respective specialties (science, med, tech). Which is why I’ve proposed a mechanic similar to “spells” in D&D.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #6 on Feb 5, 2011, 8:45pm »
have you read X-plorers? It's technically got a skill system (which is handled simular to most games' saving throws,) but in practice it works much like you are describing. A scientist can do X, while a Soldier can do Y.
I've been putting a lot of thought into SciFi RPGs recently. What is it about SciFi RPGs where they feel the need to insert a skill system?
I don't think you HAVE to have a skill system for an SF game. Traveller did, I think because Marc Miller and Frank Chadwick wanted their RPG to be different from D&D...and going with skills was an easy way to make it very different.
Quote:
In other words, why can't we have "OD&D in Space" or "C&C in Space" or "AD&D in Space" with just a simple class system? Each character class would have a short list of things it could do, much the same way that fighters or clerics or magic-users or thieves each have a short list of things it can do.
Sure you can! Call them Careers, rather than classes and you can come pretty close to Traveller without the skills. The main Careers in Classic Traveller are: Navy, Marine, Army, Merchant, Scout, and Other (Rogue), but those aren't what is really happening in game. What is important are the roles, and the main roles generally break down as: Pilot/Navigator, Engineer/Technician, Merchant/Steward, Security/Gunner, and Medic.
Quote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me like there are certain things in a SciFi setting which could be universal, like piloting a ship. Kind of like in a modern setting where one can drive a car or use a computer or use a microwave oven, do we need a special skill for this?
Well, maybe not everyone can pilot a starship, that's part of the "Pilot/Navigator" role, but working a computer or microwave oven, flying an air/raft and such would be pretty universal...unless you include "barbarians" in the mix. So, leave them out.
You know, if you want to keep it simple and I'd want to keep it simple. Have the players pick a Career and a role within it.
Career
Roles
Navy
Pilot/Navigator, Engineer, Medic, Gunner
Marines
Gunner, Trooper, Technician
Army
Gunner, Rifleman, Airman, Technician
Merchant
Trader, Pilot/Navigator, Engineer, Steward
Scouts
Pilot/Navigator, Explorer, Security, Engineer
The PC's use their Attributes + Career Level + a DM to perform tasks where:
1. They have a large DM for tasks within their Role. 2. They have a smaller DM for tasks within their Career, but not Role. 3. They have DM's, like everyone else, for "universal" tasks. 4. They have no, or negative, DM's for specialized tasks outside their Career/role.
Maybe, something like: a +0DM for common tasks, a +3DM for tasks within the Career and a +6DM for tasks within the Role.
You might not even need Attributes. Do it like SotU...
For example, meet the crew of a Suleiman Scout on detached service:
Nick Knight, Scout-6(Pilot/Navigator). Janet Daye, Merchant-5(Engineer). Roy Pluckett, Marine-5(Gunner).
Captain Knight gets a +9DM for all Scout type activities, and a +12 for Piloting and Navigating the ship. He gets a +6DM for all common tasks.
Janet, the ship's Engineer is also its Trader. She gets a +8DM for all Merchant type activities, a +11DM for Engineering and repairing equipment, and a +5DM for all common tasks.
Sgt. Pluckett, ret. handles the ship's lone laser cannon and provides the muscle if the crew gets into a tight spot...and they always do! Roy gets a +8DM for anything a Marine can do, like fire a rifle or fight with a cutlass, but because he was trained to be gunner he gets a +11DM to operate the ship's laser, and a +5 for other common tasks.
In practice, the DM and the players might decide that the PC's have their own shtick (special piece of business) as well. Nick is a natural diplomat who can charm the pants off Customs officials and other folk that might oppose the party. Janet was on a pirate ship for several years and became a real expert with both cutlass and shotgun, she's every bit as good as Roy with those two weapons. Roy, otoh, was a master scrounge in the Marines and although it wasn't in his MOS, if the crew needs something...anything!...if it can be found he'll find it for them.
Just given this little bit, I'm *sure* I could run a fun game. I'm tempted to do it, too!
Kelmult Dwarven Fgt-2 Olaf, the very lucky...so far! Human Fgt-2 Yusuf Kamal(Chainmail & Shield: AC 4, MV 6, HD 1, XP: 0, hp 6. #AT 1. 1d8 Sword, 1d6 Bow, 1d4 dagger x 2. Lucky Amulet, rations, waterskin x 2. GP: 0. [gold necklace & jewelry case with a few silver rings & bracelets...est. 70 gp])
Dieter the Deathless, anger-fueled fighting machine.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #9 on Feb 6, 2011, 7:48am »
This is neat feedback. Part of why I asked is because in the 1970's a friend and I ran what we cleverly called "Space Wars" (in the years between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back) and it was basically "OD&D in Space" with Jedi and phasers and just a general blend of scifi settings all smooshed together. We didn't use skills in OD&D and I'm sure we didn't in "Space Wars" either. (Later, my friend moved on to GM Traveller, which is heavily skill-based. He always liked more complex games than I did, and he always added "Landspeeder" to the skill list. His dad covered Indy racing and it was somehow in the family, and he always wanted his characters to be Landspeeder racers. This was years before the SW movie with podracing in it.)
I've been looking for my old notebooks but I have so much junk it's hard to find any of the really old stuff, so I thought I'd look at the retro D&D space games again and I was surprised at how many advertise the "OD&D feel" but are loaded up with skills.
I forgot about X-Plorers. I'll go look at it again.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
The PC's use their Attributes + Career Level + a DM to perform tasks where:
1. They have a large DM for tasks within their Role. 2. They have a smaller DM for tasks within their Career, but not Role. 3. They have DM's, like everyone else, for "universal" tasks. 4. They have no, or negative, DM's for specialized tasks outside their Career/role.
Maybe, something like: a +0DM for common tasks, a +3DM for tasks within the Career and a +6DM for tasks within the Role.
To me, this sounds like a skill system; you're just calling them "tasks" and maybe leaving them a bit open-ended. Nothing wrong with that, but "OD&D in space, without skills" sounds to me more like:
if you know how to do something (either because it's a universally known task or one you were trained in for your career or role,) then you do it (no roll); if you can't do something unless you have special training/equipment, you can't do it until you get both; if you do something to save your butt or attack someone, having an appropriate career or role gives you some kind of bonus; if there's a risk of something bad (4 in 6 chance rusty docking station is stuck, 1 in 6 chance your jump drive is disabled after a rushed jump,) an appropriate career or role may give a bonus.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #11 on Feb 6, 2011, 10:26pm »
I'm not sure, but "tasks" and "role" might or might not refer to a skill system.
For example, C&C has a number of special things that each class can do. I don't think of this as a "skill system" because not everyone can pick those things -- either they are a part of your class or they aren't.
If you have a list of things that anyone can pick from, and you let them determine how good they are/aren't at those things, that would be a skill system. If each "role" (I assume "class") has certain things (I assume "tasks") then it's more of a class system than a skill system.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
I've been putting a lot of thought into SciFi RPGs recently. What is it about SciFi RPGs where they feel the need to insert a skill system?
In my experience, it's because it sci-fi PCs lack the automatic role distinction hardwired into old-school classes, and require some sort of clear metric to distinguish their particular metier.
In OD&D, the magic-user is never going to tie on plate armor and the fighter is never going to be hurling fireballs. But when all PCs have the same plausible access to all skill sets, there has to be some way of distinguishing the aptitudes of each. You can assign careers or establish backgrounds to give that distinction, but then you have to either work out points of overlap or just accept that characters will never get good at any activity outside their career's purview. In my case, I prefer to take the guesswork out of things and just establish a skill system.
I certainly wouldn't say that such a system is mandatory, but it's a very quick and easy solution to character distinction. As with most of my own old-school habits, I'd need to be convinced that doing it a new way gives me more benefit than it costs.
I thought your suggestions were interesting, Eris, and I'd like to discuss them... but first, I had to point out this:
<snip>
Quote:
To me, this sounds like a skill system; you're just calling them "tasks" and maybe leaving them a bit open-ended. Nothing wrong with that, but "OD&D in space, without skills" sounds to me more like:
if you know how to do something (either because it's a universally known task or one you were trained in for your career or role,) then you do it (no roll); if you can't do something unless you have special training/equipment, you can't do it until you get both; if you do something to save your butt or attack someone, having an appropriate career or role gives you some kind of bonus; if there's a risk of something bad (4 in 6 chance rusty docking station is stuck, 1 in 6 chance your jump drive is disabled after a rushed jump,) an appropriate career or role may give a bonus.
Hum, okay...you might be right. I suppose you could see what I'm proposing as a set of very broad skills.
However, the class Fighter has an implied, very broad, set of skills that come with it, as does Cleric, and Magic-User. Thief seems to have always been more skill focused. As I see it, the Fighting Man Class is better at certain skills (weapons, avoiding/absorbing damage, etc) than other Classes at the same level. The Cleric has access to certain "skills" (healing, divine magic) to which other classes don't have access. So, I do see broadly defined skills as being part of ODD. Where Traveller (and other "skill based" RPG's) differ...IMO...is that they specify the skills and give them levels. Enumerating skills and their levels adds complexity...for better or for worse.
I did add the Role to the Career. You could look at the Role as a skill, but I think of the Career/Role combination as being analogous to the D&D class...with a bit of added specialization.
I'd propose looking at Fantasy the same way. Perhaps, Fighting Man the Class, with the possible Roles: Barbarian, Swordsman, Archer, Knight, or Swashbuckler. All Fighting Men can use all weapons as normal, but a Fighter/Swordsman is better with a sword than otherwise, a Fighter/Archer is your master bowman, etc.
Kelmult Dwarven Fgt-2 Olaf, the very lucky...so far! Human Fgt-2 Yusuf Kamal(Chainmail & Shield: AC 4, MV 6, HD 1, XP: 0, hp 6. #AT 1. 1d8 Sword, 1d6 Bow, 1d4 dagger x 2. Lucky Amulet, rations, waterskin x 2. GP: 0. [gold necklace & jewelry case with a few silver rings & bracelets...est. 70 gp])
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Re: Why does a SciFi RPG "need" skills? « Reply #14 on Feb 6, 2011, 11:27pm »
But in fantasy literature, there are definitely much less strictly-defined types. Gandalf uses a sword; Cugel uses spells. It works well for the game, though, to make the classes more exclusive in their range of activity, in order to create the sort of game that requires a team to work in tandem and each member to feel valued. You could do the same thing with Sci-Fi. Just select the disciplines/types you want and make their abilities exclusive.
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! —J.R.R. Tolkien
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