Poll Question: Should all stats have the same +/- bonus?
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Total Votes: 23 Total Voters: 23
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Topic: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? (Read 1,420 times)
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,673 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
[S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Thread Started on Jun 18, 2008, 4:02pm »
Thinking about the stat bonus charts.
The WB has different +/- numbers for each stat.
The B/X rules have something like this: 3 = -3 4-5 = -2 6-8 = -1 9-12 = +0 13-15 = +1 16-17 = +2 18 = +3
I thought that a range of +3 to -3 seemed large for a WB set, but it might be possible to unify the charts to look more like this: 3-8 = -1 9-12 = +0 13-16 = +1 17-18 = +2
Two key questions: (1) To unify or not to unify. (2) If I unify, what number scheme seems most appropriate?
EDIT: changed 17-19 on the last chart to 17-18. I had not intended to include any stats over 18 in the WB rules.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: Jul 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 2,503 Karma: 57
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #2 on Jun 18, 2008, 4:13pm »
I voted "uncertain."
I don't want to see a B/X "uniform" spread; it places too much emphasis on high ability scores. But I don't necessarily think there should be no bonus/penalty at all.
I kind of like the 15+/6- (taken from Constitution), with a simple +/-1. Really, larger bonuses should be magical in nature.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 293 Karma: 21
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #4 on Jun 18, 2008, 6:38pm »
perhaps 9-12 =0 13-17=+1 18=+2
Unifying the stats is worthless if it doesn't work in the game. The problem surfaces with the +2. It seems to me - not as a LBB player -- that a +2 bonus to hit dice is kind of high. But for an 18, perhaps it's the right bonus to "reward" that high stat roll. I mean, an 18 is a really unusual roll.
Joined: Jun 2007 Posts: 432 Location: Hollywood, California, USA Karma: 40
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #5 on Jun 18, 2008, 7:30pm »
The -3/+3 bonus chart is one of the things I most dislike about Moldvay+ Classic D&D so I absolutely wouldn't want to see it incorporated into S&W. If you want to go with a unified table (and I don't necessarily think you should" "unified" anything is horribly overrated and leads to sterile, formulaic games) I'd prefer something like the following:
3-6: major penalty 7-8: minor penalty 9-12: no adjustment 13-14: minor bonus 15-18: major bonus
With different bonuses and penalties for each stat (and no requirement that every stat have a full set of bonuses and penalties -- or any bonuses or penalties at all -- or that the bonuses and penalties necessarily mirror each other)
PRIME REQUISITE: MajP: -20% from earned XP MinP: -10% from earned XP MinB: +5% to earned XP MajB: +10% to earned XP
CONSTITUTION: MajP: -1 hit point per die (minimum 1) MinP: -- MinB: will withstand adversity MajB: +1 hit point per die
DEXTERITY: MajP: -- MinP: -1 to hit with missiles MinB: +1 to hit with missiles MajB: --
CHARISMA (the only one that doesn't track exactly from Vol. I): MajP: -1 reactions/loyalty MinP: -- MinB: +1 reactions/loyalty MajB: +2 reactions/loyalty
STRENGTH (my house rule, adapted from SuppI): MajP: -1 to open doors, -1 to hit in melee MinP: -- MinB: +1 to hit in melee (fighters only) MajB: +1 damage in melee (fighters only), +1 to open doors
I don't like giving extra bonuses for scores of 18 (and I know Vol. I did it for charisma): it's too big a reward for nothing other than being lucky (it's not like it takes real skill to roll 3 6s) and it encourages players to cheat and/or be dissatisfied with their characters if they don't have uber-scores. IMO the bonus for an 18 should be bragging rights and role-play based ("I'm not just smart/fast/strong, I'm as smart/fast/strong as it's humanly possible to get -- no one is smarter/faster/stronger than me!"), not mechanical.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 58 Location: Waco, TX Karma: 4
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #6 on Jun 18, 2008, 9:14pm »
I think the B/X modifiers would not only change the feel of the game, but are so different that changes might be required to other things (like monster hit points and combat bonuses) to "relevel" the playing field.
I like both coffee's simple idea and foster1941's more complex idea for unifying attribute mods, however: unification without inflation.
Joined: Mar 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 150 Location: York, Pennsylvania, USA Karma: 5
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #7 on Jun 18, 2008, 10:57pm »
I think the modfiers should stay as in M&M with the addition of a -1 to damage for any character of 8 strength or less and +1 to damage for Fighting-men of Strength 16 or greater.
I think the modfiers should stay as in M&M with the addition of a -1 to damage for any character of 8 strength or less and +1 to damage for Fighting-men of Strength 16 or greater.
I could live with that.
You could also look up Gary's house rules, where he had a similar melee bonus, as well as a bonus spell for Clerics with high wisdom, etc.
You could rationalize it as what Gary would have done, had he had more time to work on it.
Dieter the Deathless, anger-fueled fighting machine.
Finarvyn Administrator Dungeon Master member is offline
Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 4,673 Location: Near Chicago Karma: 178
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #9 on Jun 19, 2008, 6:38am »
I do like the idea of looking again at Gary's House rules set.
I never really liked the +3 to -3 option. but was using it more like an example.
Coffee's simple model looks pretty good: 3-6 = -1 7-14 = +0 15-18 = +1 But I'm still hung up on that "9-12 is average" thing, which is why the Holmes DEX chart is so appealing.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #10 on Jun 19, 2008, 5:52pm »
Here is Gary's rules for those that have never seen them,
Gary's OD&D House Rules
For a score of 15 or over: STR: +1 to hit and +1 to damage if a Fighter INT: +1 1st level m-u spell WIS: +1 1st level cleric spell DEX: +1 to AC, and +1 to move silently CON: +1 HP per HD (same as a Fighter class gets, +2 if a Fighter) CHA: +1 (positive) on reaction checks
HPs: Characters are only unconscious at 0 HPs. For each level a character may have a minus HP total equal to the level, so a 1st level PC is dead at -2, a 2nd level at -3, etc.
IMO I would go with WB down the line and if there were any changes I would use Gary's house rules as the default guide.
Here is Gary's rules for those that have never seen them,
Gary's OD&D House Rules
For a score of 15 or over: STR: +1 to hit and +1 to damage if a Fighter INT: +1 1st level m-u spell WIS: +1 1st level cleric spell DEX: +1 to AC, and +1 to move silently CON: +1 HP per HD (same as a Fighter class gets, +2 if a Fighter) CHA: +1 (positive) on reaction checks
HPs: Characters are only unconscious at 0 HPs. For each level a character may have a minus HP total equal to the level, so a 1st level PC is dead at -2, a 2nd level at -3, etc.
IMO I would go with WB down the line and if there were any changes I would use Gary's house rules as the default guide.
Jerry
AWESOME IDEA! I may use these for the core book as well.
How does he handle unconsciousness; the AD&D bleed-out, or they're just unconscious?
calithena Moderator Official "Fight On!" Scribe member is offline
Will Withstand Adversity
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,699 Karma: 91
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #12 on Jun 19, 2008, 11:49pm »
I third Jerry. Another post in a second.
I think Gary had folks die at zero but I can't remember where I read that. I use the save vs. death at zero, myself, to determine death vs. unconsciousness.
Re: [S&W WB] Unified stat bonus chart? « Reply #13 on Jun 20, 2008, 4:35am »
The times I played at his table it was unconscious at zero, go directly to jail, do not pass go... and the rest of the rules were as I remember.
However, that was in the late 80's to mid/late 90's and there is the possibility he was making it a little harder on us at the time, I tend to doubt that though. He may have softened up a bit since then. But I again tend to doubt it. However, Paul Stromberg or someone that played with EGG in the last few years should be able to confirm. I wish I could confirm it but, sadly, I never had the opportunity to sit at his table after that.
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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