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Matthew
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Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Thread Started on Feb 13, 2009, 11:19am »
Just some quick thoughts in response to James Maliszewski's interest in some weapon versus armour modifiers similar to those in Greyhawk for his Dwimmermount campaign.

Light Armour = AC 9-8
Medium Armour = AC 7-4
Heavy Armour = AC 3-2

Heavy Armour (Types VII-VIII)

Weapons that are very good against heavy armour treat AC 2 and 3 as AC 4; heavy flails and picks fall into this category.

Weapons that are "good" against heavy armour treat AC 2 and 3 as AC 3 and 4 respectively. Two handed swords, maces and hammers fall into this category.

Weapons that are "poor" against heavy armour treat AC 2 and 3 as AC 1 and 2 respectively; pole arms, battle axes and pikes fall into this category.

Weapons that are "very poor" against heavy armour treat AC 2 and 3 as though AC 0 and 2 respectively; daggers, swords, hand axes and spears fall into this category.

Medium Armour (Types III-VI)

Weapons that are "good" against medium armour get +1 to hit against them; flails, morning stars, military picks, pole arms, and halberds fall into this category.

Weapons that are "very good" against medium armour get +2 to hit against them; two handed swords are of this sort.

Light Armour (Types I-II)

Weapons that are "good" against light armour get +1 to hit against them; daggers, hand axes, swords, and flails.

Weapons that are "very good" against light armour get +2 to hit against them; two handed swords, pole arms, and morning stars.

Special Notes

Shields are particularly effective against long swords, negating their bonus against armour class 8.


Swords & Wizardry (2009)

Quote:

WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Dagger*+1+1+0+0+0+0−1−21-4/1-3
Hand Axe+1+1+0+0+0+0−1−21-6/1-4
Mace+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+11-6/1-4
Hammer+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+11-6/1-4
Sword*+1+0+0+0+0+0−1−21-8/1-12
Military Pick+0+0+1+1+1+1+2+21-6/1-4
Battle Axe+0+0+1+1+1+1−1−11-8/1-8
Morning Star+2+2+1+1+1+1+0+01-8/1-6
Flail+1+1+1+1+1+1+2+21-8/1-8
Spear*+0+0+0+0+0+0−1−21-6/1-8
Pole Arms*+2+2+1+1+1+1−1−11-8/1-12
Halberd*+0+0+1+1+1+1+0+01-10/2-12
Two Handed Sword+2+2+2+2+2+2+1+11-10/3-18
Pike+0+0+0+0+0+0−1−11-8/1-12




Greyhawk (1976)

Quote:

WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Dagger*+2+1+0+0−1−1−3−31-4/1-3
Hand Axe+1+1+0+0−1−2−3−31-6/1-4
Mace+0+0+0+0+0+0+1+01-6/1-4
Hammer+0+0+0+0+1+0+1+01-6/1-4
Sword*+1+0+0+0+0+0−1−21-8/1-12
Military Pick+0+0+0+0+3+2+3+21-6/1-4
Battle Axe+0+0+0+0+1+1+0−11-8/1-8
Morning Star+2+2+1+1+2+1+0+01-8/1-6
Flail+1+1+1+1+2+1+2+21-8/1-8
Spear*+0+0+0+0−1−1−1−21-6/1-8
Pole Arms*+2+2+2+1+1+0+0−11-8/1-12
Halberd*+0+0+0+1+2+1+1+01-10/2-12
Two Handed Sword+2+2+2+2+3+3+2+11-10/3-18
Mounted Lance+3+3+3+3+2+1+0+01-8/2-24
Pike+0+0+0+0+0+0+0−11-8/1-12

*If opponent is dismounted and prone use the following adjustments:

AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2
+1+2+2+3

« Last Edit: Feb 13, 2009, 3:28pm by Matthew »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #1 on Feb 13, 2009, 8:52pm »
Trying to get something that approximates the ranged weapon table has been harder, and I think it necessitates a redistribution of the "light. medium, and heavy" classifications. If applied to the melee table such a change would be relatively slight, the main difference being that daggers, hand axes and swords would be be good against AC 9-7 instead of 9-8.

Swords & Wizardry, of course, dispenses with "horse bows" and "composite bows", and includes statistics for javelins, throwing axes, throwing hammers, darts, slings, etcetera. Inspiration as to what might be appropriate would have to be taken from an examination of Swords & Spells and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons in that case, and I haven't the time to spare at the moment. Perhaps in a few days I will have time to do so, until then his will have to suffice:

Light Armour: AC 9-7 (Types I-III)
Medium Armour: AC 6-4 (Types IV-VI)
Heavy Armour: AC 3-2 (Types VII-VIII)

Heavy Armour

Ranged weapons that are very poor against heavy armour treat AC 3 as AC 1 and AC 2 as AC −1; short bows, horse bows, and light crossbows are of this sort.

Ranged weapons that are poor against heavy armour treat AC 3 as AC 2 and AC 2 as AC 0; long bows, composite bows, and heavy crossbows are of this sort.

Medium Armour

Ranged weapons that are good against medium armour gain a +1 bonus to hit; long bows, composite bows, heavy crossbows, and the arquebus are of this sort.

Light Armour

Ranged weapons that are very good against light armour gain a +2 bonus to hit; long bows, composite bows, heavy crossbows, and the arquebus are of this sort.

Ranged weapons that are good against light armour gain a +1 bonus to hit; short bows, horse bows, and light crossbows are of this sort.

Special Notes

None as yet.


Swords & Wizardry (2009)

Quote:

WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Short Bow+1+1+1+0+0+0−2−41-6/1-6
Horse Bow+1+1+1+0+0+0−2−41-6/1-6
Light Crossbow+1+1+1+0+0+0−2−41-6/1-6
Long Bow+2+2+2+1+1+1−1−21-6/1-6
Composite Bow+2+2+2+1+1+1−1−21-6/1-6
Heavy Crossbow+2+2+2+1+1+1−1−21-6/1-6
Arquebus+2+2+2+1+1+1+0+01-6/1-6



Greyhawk (1976)

Quote:

Short Range
WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Short Bow+2+2+2+1+0+0−2−31-6/1-6
Horse Bow+3+2+2+1+0+0−2−31-6/1-6
Light Crossbow+3+3+3+2+0+0−2−31-6/1-6
Long Bow+3+3+3+2+2+0+0−21-6/1-6
Composite Bow+3+3+3+2+2+0+0−31-6/1-6
Heavy Crossbow+4+4+4+2+2+1+0−11-6/1-6
Arquebus+3+3+3+3+2+2+1+01-6/1-6


Medium Range
WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Short Bow+1+1+1+0+0−1−3−51-6/1-6
Horse Bow+2+1+1+0+0−1−3−41-6/1-6
Light Crossbow+2+1+1+1+0−1−3−51-6/1-6
Long Bow+2+2+2+2+1+0−2−31-6/1-6
Composite Bow+2+2+2+1+0−1−3−41-6/1-6
Heavy Crossbow+3+2+2+1+0+0−1−21-6/1-6
Arquebus+2+2+2+2+1+0+0−11-6/1-6


Long Range
WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Short Bow+0+0+0+0−1−2−5−71-6/1-6
Horse Bow+1+0+0+0−1−2−5−71-6/1-6
Light Crossbow+1+0+0+0−1−4−5−71-6/1-6
Long Bow+1+1+1+1+0−1−4−51-6/1-6
Composite Bow+1+1+1+0−1−2−4−51-6/1-6
Heavy Crossbow+2+1+1+0+0−1−3−31-6/1-6
Arquebus+0+0+0+0+0+0−1−31-6/1-6


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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #2 on Feb 13, 2009, 10:29pm »
Totally OT, but those are awesome tables! (Much envy and desire to catch up to Matthew in web-fu) :-)
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #3 on Feb 14, 2009, 11:34am »
This is superb work, Matthew. Thank you so much for doing it. Have an exalt.

I'll be inflicting it on my players this weekend.
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #4 on Feb 14, 2009, 1:10pm »
Very nice work.

What's the best way to make it printable?
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #5 on Feb 14, 2009, 1:22pm »

Feb 14, 2009, 1:10pm, korgoth wrote:
Very nice work.

What's the best way to make it printable?


Take out all the bad words! (giggle)
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #6 on Feb 14, 2009, 5:03pm »

Feb 13, 2009, 10:29pm, Finarvyn wrote:

Totally OT, but those are awesome tables! (Much envy and desire to catch up to Matthew in web-fu) :-)


Heh, heh. Luckily the coding at Dragonsfoot and here is the same, so it was a snap to produce the tables! I think I learnt how to do tables under the auspices of Nazim and Torctref Spleenkiller.


Feb 14, 2009, 11:34am, jamesm wrote:

This is superb work, Matthew. Thank you so much for doing it. Have an exalt.

I'll be inflicting it on my players this weekend.


Thanks; no problem at all, very interesting really. Call it a fortuitous collision of interests. I hope they work out for you, and that you share any changes you make.


Feb 14, 2009, 1:10pm, korgoth wrote:

Very nice work.

What's the best way to make it printable?


Thanks. I guess the neatest way would be to shunt it into a word document and convert to pdf, but I imagine the tables would be a problem. If I find some time I will do it myself and make it available for download.


Feb 14, 2009, 1:22pm, Cameron DuBeers wrote:

Take out all the bad words!


I don't think I included the bastard sword! ;D
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #7 on May 22, 2009, 6:18pm »
A quick addition to these tables is to present them as the numbers needed to hit before fighting ability is factored in (a level one fighter has +1 to hit, for instance):

Swords & Wizardry (2009)

Quote:

WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Dagger*10111314151618201-4/1-3
Hand Axe10111314151618201-6/1-4
Mace11121314151616171-6/1-4
Hammer11121314151616171-6/1-4
Sword*10121314151618201-8/1-12
Military Pick11121213141515161-6/1-4
Battle Axe11121213141518191-8/1-8
Morning Star9101213141517181-8/1-6
Flail10111213141515161-8/1-8
Spear*11121314151618201-6/1-8
Pole Arms*9101213141518191-8/1-12
Halberd*11121213141517181-10/2-12
Two Handed Sword9101112131416171-10/3-18
Pike11121314151618191-8/1-12



Swords & Wizardry (2009)

Quote:

WeaponAC 9AC 8AC 7AC 6AC 5AC 4AC 3AC 2Damage
Short Bow10111214151619221-6/1-6
Horse Bow10111214151619221-6/1-6
Light Crossbow10111214151619221-6/1-6
Long Bow9101113141518201-6/1-6
Composite Bow9101113141518201-6/1-6
Heavy Crossbow9101113141518201-6/1-6
Arquebus9101113141517181-6/1-6


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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #8 on May 23, 2009, 12:38am »
These are very cool - exalt!
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #9 on May 23, 2009, 12:40am »
Should some weapons be good or bad against shields?

EDIT: Although that would require seperate columns for eg 'AC8 from armour and shield' as opposed to 'AC8 from tough hide'.
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #10 on May 23, 2009, 10:57am »

May 23, 2009, 12:38am, apeloverage wrote:

These are very cool - exalt!


Thanks!


May 23, 2009, 12:40am, apeloverage wrote:

Should some weapons be good or bad against shields?

EDIT: Although that would require separate columns for eg 'AC8 from armour and shield' as opposed to 'AC8 from tough hide'.


These tables were written to roughly approximate the original Greyhawk tables, so AC 8, 6, 4, and 2 are representative of shields. However, the only instance where shields are really taken into account is for long swords, which do not get a bonus to hit versus an unarmoured opponent with a shield.

It can, of course, be used without reference to shields, most simply by removing those columns, so that you would be left with Unarmoured (AC 9), Leather Armour (AC 7), Mail Armour (AC 5), and Plate Armour (AC 3). Alternatively, the numbers could be retooled to use the full range of classes, so that:

AC 9 = Unarmoured
AC 8-7 = Light Armour
AC 6-4 = Medium Armour
AC 3-2 = Heavy Armour

Then separate consideration could be given to shields to figure which weapons they are likely most and least effective against.


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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #11 on May 25, 2009, 7:42am »
I have begun to adapt this for S&W:WB, where all weapons do essentially the same amount of damage and we only use four categories of armor (without reference to shields) - Unarmored, Leather Armor, Mail Armor and Plate Armor.

While all weapons do nearly the same damage, it only makes sense to me for certain weapons to be at least more effective in hitting certain types of armor. I also like the idea of giving these bonuses to monsters who do damage similarly to human weapons.

I am thinking that for the majority of attacks there will probably not be any modifier and that in a few weapon-to-armor combinations would have a +1/-1 modifiers (at the most).

But I thought our resident Master of all things medieval (Matthew) might already have such a system already worked out. As with all things WB, the simpler the better.
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #12 on May 25, 2009, 3:17pm »
I was going to contest that "master" appellation, but then I remembered that I do have a masters in medieval studies, so I will let it stand. ;D

It is a hard subject, in my opinion, not least because there are few ways to gauge the effectiveness of X to Y at the level of abstraction Swords & Wizardry assumes, but on the other hand that self same abstraction means that we can get away with pretty general ideas and comparisons. The best way to keep the game balanced when every weapon is otherwise the same is to make each good and bad against one armour type, but that can be frustratingly forced.

I guess the most widely accepted idea is that impact weapons like the mace, hammer, and pick are better against plate armour than bladed weapons like swords and axes or traditional spears, but then you have sturdy thrusting swords and spears designed to better overcome plate armour (I am assuming that we are talking some sort of plate and mail here, rather than full harness, but it does not really matter all that much).

The problem that occurs to me is that "armour busting" weapons might enjoy similar advantages versus mail or leather as they would against plate, so I sometimes feel that they ought to be rated better against all kinds of armour. Alternatively, it may be easier and more accurate to think of swords, axes, and spears as being partially nullified by plate. It is a hard call, but I think if you are going with a plus/minus system then you should not worry too much about historical authenticity and instead defer to what makes for a fun game.
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #13 on May 25, 2009, 4:55pm »

May 25, 2009, 3:17pm, Matthew wrote:
I was going to contest that "master" appellation, but then I remembered that I do have a masters in medieval studies, so I will let it stand. ;D

It is a hard subject, in my opinion, not least because there are few ways to gauge the effectiveness of X to Y at the level of abstraction Swords & Wizardry assumes, but on the other hand that self same abstraction means that we can get away with pretty general ideas and comparisons. The best way to keep the game balanced when every weapon is otherwise the same is to make each good and bad against one armour type, but that can be frustratingly forced.

I guess the most widely accepted idea is that impact weapons like the mace, hammer, and pick are better against plate armour than bladed weapons like swords and axes or traditional spears, but then you have sturdy thrusting swords and spears designed to better overcome plate armour (I am assuming that we are talking some sort of plate and mail here, rather than full harness, but it does not really matter all that much).

The problem that occurs to me is that "armour busting" weapons might enjoy similar advantages versus mail or leather as they would against plate, so I sometimes feel that they ought to be rated better against all kinds of armour. Alternatively, it may be easier and more accurate to think of swords, axes, and spears as being partially nullified by plate. It is a hard call, but I think if you are going with a plus/minus system then you should not worry too much about historical authenticity and instead defer to what makes for a fun game.


Thank you Master Matthew. Unfortunately, my Masters only covers up to the Roman Empire and I never seem to want to adventure in the ancient world. :)
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Re: Weapon Type versus Armour Class
« Reply #14 on May 25, 2009, 5:29pm »
What should I say... I worker on "Sea and river workers in Mesopotamia from 26th to 18th century BC" for my master ::)

One very good thing, Matthew, is that you included Arquebus. Nothing fits best Od&d - it's clearly mentionned both Chainmail and FFC.
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