Re: B/X D&D Massive Player Casualties « Reply #30 on Aug 9, 2012, 11:54am »
There is a lot of great advice out there. I have a couple of coppers to toss in:
I wrote a one page old school primer some time back that condenses everything. It was meant to be printed out and left, guerilla-like, in places. You can find it here.
Treasure: Throw things at them that they do not expect! Not every treasure will be or should be a boon, too. Look around the internet for ideas or things to snag. My blog (link below) is full of spells, magic items, monsters, etc. Take a spell and make it into a magic item if you want to, change things around. There are other great blogs out there doing the same thing, too!
Monsters: Players should know when to run, you are doing this right, although, do you have beneficial creatures too? Sometimes that oddball thing that helps keeps the morale of the players up.
One idea for healing is allow them to drink an ale and get 1-3 hit points back. Then have them roll a d6. If the number they roll is UNDER the number of drinks consumed this session, they are drunk and a) can not get any more healing this way this day and 2) have -2 on all dice rolls until they sober up!
I think this is a great rule, and we've used it in a C&C Conan game that a friend runs from time to time. But it might hinder them more than help with the possibility of getting drunk. I might add to your rule and say that the first drink gives 1-3 hit points back, but the second drink causes the roll for drunkeness.
Thanks Makofan.
Exactly. 1 drink means a 0 or less on a d6 gets them drunk (no chance) as they have to roll UNDER the number to get drunk. 2 drinks means a 1or less on a d6 gets them drunk,et cetera
They don't have any spell casters i.e. clerics or magic users, which I see as a serious problem. Although, they did. Unfortunately the spell casters died early on and no one rolled new ones.
To me, that's a serious problem. Clerics to turn the undead, and magic-users to sleep and charm humanoid foes.
Elves have more survivability than magic-users, so maybe they'd like to go that route.
Consider allowing the OD&D bard class. At 1st level they can't do much, but at 1000 xp they get to level 2, and from there on out they can act as thieves and magic-users of half their level, in addition to bardic charming and suggestion abilities.
Agreed, i'm going to suggest one or two of them play a cleric, elf or magic-user at the beginning of next session. I've also rolled up an NPC magic-user that will join them for an equal share of loot if the PC's wish to take him on.
There is a lot of great advice out there. I have a couple of coppers to toss in:
I wrote a one page old school primer some time back that condenses everything. It was meant to be printed out and left, guerilla-like, in places. You can find it here.
This is awesome, thank you. If they didn't read the Old School Primer, hopefully they will at least read a page long one. I'm going to send them your link and print some out.
Treasure: Throw things at them that they do not expect! Not every treasure will be or should be a boon, too. Look around the internet for ideas or things to snag. My blog (link below) is full of spells, magic items, monsters, etc. Take a spell and make it into a magic item if you want to, change things around. There are other great blogs out there doing the same thing, too!
Monsters: Players should know when to run, you are doing this right, although, do you have beneficial creatures too? Sometimes that oddball thing that helps keeps the morale of the players up.
Benign creatures? Not sure what you mean by oddball? Fiend Folio odd?
Re: B/X D&D Massive Player Casualties « Reply #34 on Aug 9, 2012, 5:47pm »
By benign and oddball I mean that sometimes I throw something weird into a game. Creatures that are going to help a party in some way. I am a 3"x5" index card king (I used to like super detail, but Finarvyn unwittingly and unknowingly converted me). I keep a lot of surprises, good, bad and indifferent, on 3"x5" cards in one of those card holders, indexed. When I reach for the box the players never know what is up my sleeve and they are sometimes relieved to get a little help.
Agreed, i'm going to suggest one or two of them play a cleric, elf or magic-user at the beginning of next session. I've also rolled up an NPC magic-user that will join them for an equal share of loot if the PC's wish to take him on.
NPCs shouldn't do too much of the heavy lifting, IMHO. Let the players be the masters of their own fates.
On magic-users (and spell casters in general), it may be worth mentioning that while a 1st level magic-user can only cast one spell per day from memory, there's no limit to the number of spells he can cast from scrolls. This is probably where the majority of a starting spell-caster's money should be invested. Make 1st level scrolls 25gp each, or simply give the player 3 or 4 scrolls to start with...?
If you are not already using it, consider introducing the "Shields shall be splintered" house rule. This allows players with shields to "cancel" a hit by sacrificing their shield -- almost certainly extending the survivorship of fighters by at least one hit, and possibly more (given a shield bearer lugging a few spares around).
Aye, this is a great house rule, and we did institute this rule at the same time we instituted adding the 2nd level hd rule. But no one has used it yet. I'll have to remind them about it.
Another option is to simply "make it so". If ever a (frontal) blow would kill a PC who is carrying a shield, his shield is instead dashed into splinters and he survives. This doesn't require any effort from the players, and it is probably the "optimal" player strategy to preserve his AC for as long as possible anyway.
A similar option/house rule was discussed a while back regarding helmets, see here . Or, alternatively, you could rule that helmets improve AC by one pip (this is what I do in my games, in fact).
Another option is to simply "make it so". If ever a (frontal) blow would kill a PC who is carrying a shield, his shield is instead dashed into splinters and he survives. This doesn't require any effort from the players, and it is probably the "optimal" player strategy to preserve his AC for as long as possible anyway.
This is more or less my general suggestion. You are running things by the book... recall that this game was played by people used to wargames and sandtable minis, so "unit loss" was part of the whole game. So you're not doing anything "wrong"....
except you need to have a game enjoyable for you and your players, and it sounds like that isn't happening. I fudge a lot more things for low level characters, especially in B/X. Maybe the spider's poison takes a couple of turns to take effect, and there's a mushroom in the next dungeon chamber that will counteract its effect if ingested. Start the magic-user at 2nd level. Give them a magic scroll that doubles HP for the day. Lean on one-shot magic items like potions and scrolls that they have to use up to survive to higher leve.
Also, consider nerfing xp awards rather than awarding scads more treasure. It's fine to bury them in gp but then (if you are running a campaign) you will have to figure out where all those gp go and what players will do with them.
Normally, this is the road to monty haul and munchkin games, but I think you started them out on the road to perpetual character-rolling, which IMO can be kind of dull. While detailed character backstories are kind of a bad idea and waste of time in B/X, I don't like ending up with "Erac's Cousin's Second Wife's Brother-in-Law" either, as players roll up more and more replacement characters.
On magic-users (and spell casters in general), it may be worth mentioning that while a 1st level magic-user can only cast one spell per day from memory, there's no limit to the number of spells he can cast from scrolls. This is probably where the majority of a starting spell-caster's money should be invested. Make 1st level scrolls 25gp each, or simply give the player 3 or 4 scrolls to start with...?
THIS is a phenomenal idea! (I mean, heck, they can't spend the coin on weapons or armor!)
Another option is to simply "make it so". If ever a (frontal) blow would kill a PC who is carrying a shield, his shield is instead dashed into splinters and he survives. This doesn't require any effort from the players, and it is probably the "optimal" player strategy to preserve his AC for as long as possible anyway.
This is more or less my general suggestion. You are running things by the book... recall that this game was played by people used to wargames and sandtable minis, so "unit loss" was part of the whole game. So you're not doing anything "wrong"....
except you need to have a game enjoyable for you and your players, and it sounds like that isn't happening. I fudge a lot more things for low level characters, especially in B/X. Maybe the spider's poison takes a couple of turns to take effect, and there's a mushroom in the next dungeon chamber that will counteract its effect if ingested. Start the magic-user at 2nd level. Give them a magic scroll that doubles HP for the day. Lean on one-shot magic items like potions and scrolls that they have to use up to survive to higher leve.
Also, consider nerfing xp awards rather than awarding scads more treasure. It's fine to bury them in gp but then (if you are running a campaign) you will have to figure out where all those gp go and what players will do with them.
Normally, this is the road to monty haul and munchkin games, but I think you started them out on the road to perpetual character-rolling, which IMO can be kind of dull. While detailed character backstories are kind of a bad idea and waste of time in B/X, I don't like ending up with "Erac's Cousin's Second Wife's Brother-in-Law" either, as players roll up more and more replacement characters.
Awesome! Thanks Barrataria.
And you are right, i think i've remained a little to steadfast to "by the book" as you say. I plan to loosen the belt a little for situations that require it and give the players the means to counter a little bad luck.
And i'm not to worried about the gp. They are on the outskirts of civilization so the gp convertible treasure usually gets a serious hit when its sold. Although i award them full gp price in xp.
Re: B/X D&D Massive Player Casualties « Reply #40 on Sept 5, 2012, 3:23pm »
Update!
We've played two sessions since i posted this topic here and...
Things are going well. No one has died in two sessions, several PCs are 2nd level, the thief is well on his way to third.
I really didn't change much other than add whimsy cards so that each player gets one at the beginning and then can earn more by coming up with great ideas in game. I also added the house rule mentioned above about healing after each battle by drinking alcohol. And, I've been using monster reaction which i forgot to use in the earlier sessions.
None of that has really factored into the game. The biggest difference has come from the players who read this thread and started applying it in play. Basically they are playing much smarter (using more guile and deception, using the dungeon to their advantage) and it has made a huge difference. The other difference is the addition of an elf with a sleep spell, which has really factored into survivablity in crucial encounters.
I can't preach enough that players who are going into an Old School (dungeon crawl) type game have to know what they are getting into and adjust their play styles, especially if they are coming from newer games. This is absolutely critical! The old school primer is a great help, I wish my players had read it and put it into practice from the beginning, i think it would have saved a lot of PC lives, but who knows.
The group is still on the fence with the B/X rules and Old School. We'll see if the campaign can endure...
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 521 Location: The Maze of Peril Karma: 27
Re: B/X D&D Massive Player Casualties « Reply #41 on Sept 5, 2012, 6:50pm »
My experience pretty much tallies with yours. Player experience (as opposed to PC experience) really makes a difference to character survival, I believe. This is probably why most experienced Traveller and RuneQuest groups I have known tended to do well in B/X - they were used to avoiding direct conflict and stacking the deck in their favour before going into combat.
It's great to see new people coming to B/X and learning how to get the most out of the game!
Re: B/X D&D Massive Player Casualties « Reply #42 on Sept 6, 2012, 10:04am »
That's great... glad you have found an enjoyable game style. Sleep and undead turning are pretty critical to survival in this game.
And don't let the campaign "die" even if they don't want to play regularly; you can keep it as a night-off type of game, for when some players don't show, or the regular DM needs a night off, or whatever. If you throw together smaller dungeons, or park them outside a megadungeon, the game can be really enjoyable in this "perpetual one-off" type of play.
On magic-users (and spell casters in general), it may be worth mentioning that while a 1st level magic-user can only cast one spell per day from memory, there's no limit to the number of spells he can cast from scrolls. This is probably where the majority of a starting spell-caster's money should be invested. Make 1st level scrolls 25gp each, or simply give the player 3 or 4 scrolls to start with...?
THIS is a phenomenal idea! (I mean, heck, they can't spend the coin on weapons or armor!)
Unless I am mistaken, B/X presumes that an MU can have no more spells in his spellbook than he can cast per day. This means that the only way scrolls will be of any use to a 1st level MU is to have read magic be his only "known" spell. Otherwise, this work-around doesn't help until at least 2nd level. Indeed, it doesn't even do any good for there to be scrolls as treasure, except as delayed gratification.
There are, of course, work-arounds to this (e.g. allowing the MU to have more spells in his book), but I thought I should mention that B/X's rule about spells known makes the scroll solution generally usable in OD&D (and esp. with Holmes' rule that MUs of any level can produce scrolls) not especially helpful for a by-the-book B/X campaign.
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