D6 vs Dfunky « Thread Started on Apr 20, 2011, 7:02pm »
One of the first problems seems to be a dice usage. D6 are easy to obtain. D20 sets are pretty standard for most OSR games. Which is more important?
As far as I'm concerned this is fundementaly an issue of audience. If this project is meant to be an intro to role-playing through the lens of classic style gaming then setting the entry difficulty as low as possible is important. However if the aim is to be an introduction to Oldschool gaming rather then RPing as a whole, then we want to make sure the game is as representative of the majority of OSR games as possible.
My other question: are D6's that much easier to obtain then full dice sets? Are board games popular enough to assume that a new player will have a set of D6's on hand? Can you still buy D6's in chain stores (honestly I haven't looked in a decade or so.)
Should the availability of dice simulating programs and Apps be considered? Many of us old-schoolers abhor the idea of electronics at the table, but it can be safely assumed that anyone who finds this book will have at the very least a computer. Can Digital Dice be a replacement for physical dice in an introductory environment?
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #1 on Apr 20, 2011, 7:16pm »
Yep, you can get d6s in Target, K-Mart, or Wal-Mart, either in Yahtzee or as a pair or set of five (Bicycle brand, I believe, just like the playing cards.) They're a little more expensive than what we're used to, but they're easy to find. I think I've even seen them at convenience stores like 7 Eleven.
There's a digital app for the iPhone/iPad that isn't just a dice roller, it mimics the way physical dice roll. You roll the dice by giving the phone a shake. Of course, there are some other issues surrounding digital media, but that might be best saved for later.
I do want to address the issue of audience; I agree with you that this is important, but I think it's important enough for its own thread.
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #3 on Apr 21, 2011, 4:27am »
Aye, it does depend on audience. When this was first discussed there was a clear audience in mind, but I'll go into it in the appropriate thread.
Six siders are definitely easy to get ahold of in the UK, looks like they are over there too. So we can safely argue about whether we should use d6 or dfunky methinks.
I would like to have the d6 option there, we hope to get people who've never roleplayed before. However, if we do use d6 we must ensure that there is the option of dfunky there in the rulebook, so that new players are exposed to them before moving on to other games, and can use them if they have them.
There was the question about whether doing this would cause confusion, which is a good point and needs addressing carefully.
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #4 on Apr 21, 2011, 1:56pm »
Using d6's sets certain limitations to a rules set, which is why I like dfunky dice.
For example, using 2d6 for combat sets up a pretty narrow result range, and low dice plusses tend to break the scale in a hurry. (Example: Decipher's LotR RPG, where Aragorn basically can't miss in combat.) Also, a +1 tends to mean diffrent things on different parts of the scale.
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #5 on Apr 21, 2011, 3:28pm »
Aye, t'is true. But does it matter all that much if a +1 is more effective in a 2d6 system than a d20? As long as +1 is the biggest bonus, and the same scale is used for everyone (npcs/monsters included).
Also, a limited result range matters less at level 1-3 where all attack rolls are the same than it does beyond those levels.
However I also agree with all the reasoning behind the use of d20s instead. So its also worth considering trying instead to ensure the availability if d20s.
"If you like the idea of Blackadder II and Kit Marlowe getting drunk and fighting cultists and Spaniards in the London sprawl then check this baby out" - Jeff Rients
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #6 on Apr 21, 2011, 3:31pm »
Another consideration *is* the ease with which people can gain access to computerised/mobilised dice rollers. Perhaps we should push these as a potential alternative to real dice?
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #7 on Apr 22, 2011, 9:55am »
Another consideration *is* the ease with which people can gain access to computerised/mobilised dice rollers. Perhaps we should push these as a potential alternative to real dice?
Oh, what an evil thought. I hope my game never hits the point where we're all rolling numbers on our cell phones instead of using actual dice. I love dice and never want them to be electronic.
I play two styles of games: 1. D&D type (OD&D, C&C, etc) where dice are important. 2. Amber Diceless where dice don't exist.
Just my two cents. (And maybe just my own personal hangup. )
Marv / Finarvyn DCC playtester (2011) C&C playtester (2003) I'm partly responsible for the S&W WhiteBox Builder of the TrollBridge Master of Mutants; MA since 1976 OD&D Player since 1975
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!" - Dave Arneson
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #9 on Apr 22, 2011, 8:43pm »
Are digital rollers as fun as real dice? Of course not! But they are a resource in this day and age. I don't see why we shouldn't point them out as an option.
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #10 on Apr 24, 2011, 10:22am »
Yep. They should definitely be pointed out. People are likely to have access to them. As long as we point out how much more fun real dice are I think people will generally want to move onto real dice anyway though as soon as they can.
As for alternative random number generators, I think calculators are far superior to stopwatches. Just put in a stream of numbers, then press the square root button every time you want a random number. Take the rightmost digit as a d10 roll. For a d20, the second-rightmost number decides wether it's from 1-10 or 11-20. And for percentile just take the two rightmost numbers.
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #11 on May 3, 2011, 6:54am »
Personally, I can't think of D&D without the classic d20 attack roll and saving throw. On the other hand six-siders are by far the most common dice around.
They have the ENORMOUS advantage of being omnipresent -- there can hardly be a house in the western world without a few d6s.
Six-siders are also free of any stigma associated with being a specialist "gamer" thing. Ordinary, well adjusted, non-gamer folks are already comfortable throwing six-siders for their regular board games.
I guess what I'm trying to say (in a round about way) is that if you stick to six-siders, just about anyone could potentially take home your "starter" game and on the spur of the moment start up a game with stuff they already have around home. Pencil, paper, and a few regular dice.
On the other hand, if you need "weird" dice that most people don't already have in the cupboard at home, then that is a barrier that is probably big enough to prevent those people from ever getting started. They might read the starter kit and think "Cool," but if they don't have the go gear on hand, they will find something else to do instead.
That's a potential slice out of your potential audience. Whether or not that matters at all depends on how big, important, or influential that slice of the potential audience might be.
My feeling is that it should be a pretty important consideration if you are in the business of trying to encourage new (non-gamer) folks to the hobby.
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #12 on May 3, 2011, 7:08am »
...oh, and while I'm thinking about dice...
You can do a whole lot more with a few six siders than simply throwing 1d6, 2d6 or 3d6.
There is always your d66 : Throw two dice, the first die being your "10s" and the second die being your "1s". It's just like a d100 but with six siders.
Then there is your d36 : Take 1 die and write 0, 6, 12, 18, 24 and 30 on its six faces. Now throw that die with a regular d6 and add the results. You get numbers between 1 and 36, with an equal chance of any result.
Then you have your "highest of" (or "lowest of") rolls. Roll X many d6 and pick the highest (or lowest) result.
And there are other weird methods too, including my own Damage Dice method -- which is to roll X many damage dice (dd) and sum like faces. The highest sum is the result.
So I guess the point of all this is to say that there is plenty of scope for gaming with a few six sided dice
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Re: D6 vs Dfunky « Reply #13 on May 3, 2011, 8:15am »
Hmm. I have come around to the point that I will concede we need to do this as solely d6 based for sheer accessibility. As you said above, everyone has them from a boardgame - Yahtzee or whatever. No need to put them in the bag with rules.
Will I miss the d20? Hell yeah. But we can probably just point out that the "traditional" game uses all those funny dice (available at your FLGS or online) and when you move on to one of the free rulesets, you'll be able to use them.
I don't think we want to go down the road of bizarre combinations like your d35 or d66 examples though. They just aren't used in the real game and will confuse people. Likewise Fudge. Six sided yes, but not d6.
What about games that have D&D combat but already only use d6s? Does Chainmail or Spellcraft & Sorcery ditch the d20?
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I think people will generally want to move onto real dice anyway though as soon as they can.
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