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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 22, 2009 10:24:30 GMT -6
Before I start, it's only fair to note that I don't pay much attention to "scale" in RPGs. I don't worry a lot about how many seconds per turn, how many pounds one can carry, actual miles per hour for speeds, and so on. This is another "relative scale" problem that I typically don't think much about, but today it bothered me again so I thought I'd start some discussion on the topic. I think there was a thread that touched on this a while back, but in re-reading Monsters & Treasure I encountered an issue that has troubled me occasionally for over three decades.
How many monsters? How much treasure?
To elaborate, take the Orc as an example and M&T suggests 30-300 of them and Type D treasure. The 30-300 number is clearly not designed to be on the "dungeon" scale but instead represents more of a "wandering in the wilderness" scale.
1. Assuming that I actually roll 30d10 (which the book never actually explains, so it could be 30*1d10) I would get an average encounter of 165 orcs.
2. What about their treasure? 10% chance of 1d8*1000 CP equates to (.10*4.5*1000/100) 4.5 GP worth of copper, assuming that 100 CP is one GP. 15% chance of 1d12*1000 SP equates to (.15*6.5*1000/10) 97.5 GP with of silver, assuming that 10 SP is one GP. 60% chance of 1d8*1000 GP equates to (.60*4.5*1000) 2700 GP. Total average loot (excluding gems, jewelry, and magic) comes out to roughly 2800 GP in value. More with good rolls, less with poor ones. This comes out to roughly 17 GP per orc.
The problem is that there really isn't a guideline for typical encounters in the dungeon. The 165 orc encounter is probably going to represent a "village" or orcs or the entirely of a place like Moria, not another random room in a dungeon.
Imagine a couple of 2nd level characters in an adventure.
DM: "You go down the stairs and come to a door."
Players: "Draw swords! We open the door!"
DM: "You encounter..." (rolls dice) "...165 orcs."
My solution now, as it has been for 30 years, is simply to modify the numbers. My dungeon key might say "8 orcs" or maybe "3d6 orcs" or some such. But then at the end of the encounter I often take the lazy way out and roll Type D treasure which gives those 2800 GP as a prize for killling a dozen or fewer orcs, which is most likely not the intent. On the other hand, the only way to advance in levels is through XP and XP is based on gold, so a party of 4 1st level characters kill those dozen orcs they probably deserve to get 2800/4=700 XP each for their efforts.
While I don't mind giving out a little too much treasure to my players, it does seem odd that one scale is given so much space while the other is essentially ignored. The fact that we can encounter 1d4 dragons and 1 dragon has the same treasure as 4 of them.
In general I just don't worry about it, but I'd be curious as to how anyone else handles this.
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 22, 2009 10:31:21 GMT -6
I thoroughly ignore both treasure type and number appearing. ;D
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Post by snorri on Nov 22, 2009 13:35:51 GMT -6
I currently face the same trouble, as I try to build a dungeon using U&WA and M&T by the book - at least as a basis to start it randomly, with some fleshing around. Currently, one of the things I had to switch was precisely this issue of number. But still I think, for various reasons, come back to M&T numbers.
This attempt makes me look more carefully at the differences between M&T and U&WA, which could gives a lot of clues about the OD&D archeology. The numbers in M&T looks to fit more entire tribes of creatures, either to build a full set of caves (the Moria example's Fin suggested) or best, a battle list for a wargame session. The U&WA discuss this fact, without a clear answer, as it states that this is too difficult to give a clear rule for all situations (p. 10-11) - a sign which this has been written later.
The way a casttle is designed suggest the same directio: the number is rolled for the full place. A typical castle (p. 15-16) has one Occupant, a number of special guards rolled with 1d4 to 1d20 according to their type, 3d6x10 normal guards and sometime, a second to the occupant, generally form another class. Total, from 32 to 202 creatures. So, within the same frame, having 40-400 kobolds in a place don't means all live in the same room, or rarely does so. So the number per room is let to the decision of the referee, according to his dungeon [that's why, after attempting to switch to another system, I will go back to the M&T one for my btb dungeon].
The treasure list in U&WA (p. 7) is rather curious, as it seems to contradict the M&T one. Being simplier in many aspects, including the fact there are only six levels, I would rather suspect it's an older version. The mention of a d12 is a Gygaxianism.
U&WA is the less discussed of OD&D booklets, but I'm pretty sure we got a lot of funny things to learn from it - I will come back on that subject.
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Post by coffee on Nov 22, 2009 15:35:09 GMT -6
My solution now, as it has been for 30 years, is simply to modify the numbers. My dungeon key might say "8 orcs" or maybe "3d6 orcs" or some such. But then at the end of the encounter I often take the lazy way out and roll Type D treasure which gives those 2800 GP as a prize for killling a dozen or fewer orcs, which is most likely not the intent. On the other hand, the only way to advance in levels is through XP and XP is based on gold, so a party of 4 1st level characters kill those dozen orcs they probably deserve to get 2800/4=700 XP each for their efforts. Volume II, p. 23 (immediately after the treasure types table) has this to say: The number appearing doesn't indicate wandering monsters; only the number in a lair (or wilderness encounter). And a lair should have a rich reward, if you can conquer it. Thus, wandering monsters do not carry treasure. They are there to slow the party down (or, conversely, to speed them up: If the party argues a lot, go ahead and make more wandering monster rolls). It is generally best not to fight them, if possible. Note that I said "if possible"; sometimes it isn't possible to avoid them. Now, all this is simply the "by the book" way of doing things. It needn't change how you've done things for 30 years. (And, later on in AD&D Gygax also included treasure for wandering monsters, so he apparently had a change of heart on that.) |
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Post by irdaranger on Nov 23, 2009 20:34:40 GMT -6
The only way this ever made sense to me was that 30-300 was a "tribe" of Orcs, whether than meant a dungeon complex, taken-over fort, village, or whatever. The listed treasure was at the heart of the tribe, usually held by a Chieftain or High Priest. It was never for 8 orcs in a room.
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palmer
Level 3 Conjurer
Foolish Rules Lawyer! Your disingenuous dissembling means nothing to Doom!
Posts: 81
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Post by palmer on Nov 23, 2009 22:33:01 GMT -6
That would be my assumption as well, Irdaranger.
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Post by philotomy on Dec 6, 2009 14:10:32 GMT -6
I consider the "Number Appearing" value from Vol 2's Monster Reference Table as applying primarily to wilderness encounters. (See the note at the bottom of pg. 4 which mentions increasing/decreasing the number, and that it is primiarly for "out-door" encounters.) I also consider the "Treasure Type" value as being associated with a full lair of the monsters in question. (See the note on pg 23 of Vol 2.) In short, I think of the numbers and treasure in Vol. 2 as being a rough guideline for a typical lair in the wilderness: a tribe of orcs, a family of giants, an infestation of ghouls, et cetera.
For the underworld, the Vol. 2 numbers and treasure are not usually my primary reference. However, keep in mind that I draw a distinction between "lair type" dungeons and "the underworld" dungeons. For example, if I were designing a mundane cave system used as a lair by a band of ogres, I'd consider that a "wilderness lair" and I'd probably reference Vol. 2. Similarly, if I had a small ruined fortress with a dungeon level beneath it, and it was the base of operations for a group of brigands, I might reference Vol 2 as a guide to their numbers and treasure. However, if I were stocking an underworld dungeon, I'd probably take a different approach.
For the underworld, I reference Vol. 3 and the Monster & Treasure Assortements as my guides. I might also reference Vol 2. if I were considering something like an entire humanoid tribe for a given level or section. For example, let's take a tribe of 165 orcs that is living in the upper level or two of the underworld dungeon. I would break that tribe up into encounters. On the first level, it might be guard-posts or patrols of 2-5 orcs. These would mostly be fairly widely spaced (and thus forgiving -- not automatically calling down the entire tribe as a result of the encounter). Treasure would be limited, but might include other clues or useful items (e.g. keys, maps, passcodes, et cetera). On the second level, the number of orcs in a single encounter might go up to 3-12, and they would be closer together, maybe with some better organization. Et cetera.
Thinking about it, I really do lean a lot on the Monster & Treasure Assortments as a loose guide for level appropriate numbers and treasure.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 6, 2009 18:50:26 GMT -6
I really do lean a lot on the Monster & Treasure Assortments as a loose guide for level appropriate numbers and treasure. Yeah, those are an awesome resource. Too bad no one has done something like this in a Word doc so folks could edit and customize to their own campaign! |
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Post by grodog on Dec 6, 2009 22:57:09 GMT -6
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Post by philotomy on Dec 7, 2009 15:48:38 GMT -6
I really do lean a lot on the Monster & Treasure Assortments as a loose guide for level appropriate numbers and treasure. Yeah, those are an awesome resource. Too bad no one has done something like this in a Word doc so folks could edit and customize to their own campaign! I've thought about making a small database app that would let you customize the entries and print reports (i.e. tables). Or generate a list of encounters/treasures for you. Unfortunately, I simply haven't had the time. I'd like a customizable set like this, though, because I use different values from many (e.g. d6 hit dice, d6 damage, and a “Fighting Ability” bonus); it would definitely be convenient to have my campaign-specific values and entries in the list. Also, FWIW, I cover one approach to stocking a dungeon in my creating a mythic underworld dungeon musing. |
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