Joined: Nov 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 517 Location: Corvallis, OR Karma: 13
The Extent of Charm Person: A Few Clues « Thread Started on Jul 18, 2012, 11:00pm »
There has been some debate as of late conserving the 1st level Charm Person spell described in Men & Magic. Opinions range that the spell grants the use complete mind control of the subject to merely placing the charmed person in a position similar to that of a friendly henchman or retainer. What all these arguments seems to miss is a few passages hidden in Monsters & Treasure that give great insight into Charm Person's intent.
First, though, let's look at the spell itself:
Quote:
Charm Person: This spell applies to all two-legged, generally mammalian figures near to or less than man-size, excluding all monsters in the "Undead" class but including Sprites, Pixies, Nixies, Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins, and Gnolls. If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the "charm" is dispelled (Dispel Magic). Range 12". (M&M, 23)
The key word, here, I see is "completely." Completely under the influence, the spell reads. While what exactly that influence entails is unexplained here, it is not partial in any way.
Let us now move on to the potion of human control in Monsters & Treasure:
Quote:
Human Control: This potion has generally the same effect as a Charm Person spell, but it can effect from 1-12 persons with 3 or fewer Hit Dice, 2-8 with 4-6 Hit Dice, 1-4 with 7-9 Hit Dice, and 1 with 10 or more Hit Dice. Saving Throws are applicable. (M&T, 32) As you can see, the potion of human control mimics the affect of a Charm Person spell, but allows control of a greater number of persons. In a similar manner, the potion of giant control makes reference to the Charm Monster spell, and the potion of undead control to the Charm Animal spell.
The final bit of clarification comes from the ring of Mammal Control, which reads:
Quote:
Mammal Control: The ring allows the wearer to control from 3-18 small mammals or from 1-8 large mammals. This does not consider any creatures listed on the Monster Reference Table. Control is complete, even to having the controlled mammals attack the others with it which are not controlled. Range is 6". (M&T, 33)
The question is, really, does the Charm Person spell work like the ring of mammal control, even to the extent of forcing the charmed person to attack its allies? Seeing as Human Control is (basically) the same affect as Charm Person, and Human Control should mimic the general guidelines of Mammal Control, I would say yes, based on my reading of the following passages.
But since others seem to have different opinions on the subject, what am I missing?
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2012, 11:07pm by tombowings »
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Joined: Mar 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 1,596 Location: Schenectady Karma: 73
Re: The Extent of Charm Person: A Few Clues « Reply #1 on Jul 19, 2012, 3:01pm »
That makes perfect sense. The thing that's tripped me up before is this from Hold person, "A spell similar to a Charm Person but which is of both limited duration and greater effect. It will effect from 1-4 persons...."
So the argument has sometimes gone that because it has "greater effect" hold person exerts a stronger control over an individual than Charm Person. But your reading makes more sense and the "greater effect" referred to apparently means "effects more than one person" instead of having a stronger effect on the individual.
Joined: Nov 2009 Gender: Male Posts: 517 Location: Corvallis, OR Karma: 13
Re: The Extent of Charm Person: A Few Clues « Reply #2 on Jul 19, 2012, 4:56pm »
That would be my assumption as well.
But penalty to saving throws is also handy in tight situations. It's also interest that (even after Greyhawk) Charm Person is the only 1st level spell that a saving throw will negate - I think that says something about its abilities when compared to sleep, which allows none and affects a greater number of creatures.
Re: The Extent of Charm Person: A Few Clues « Reply #3 on Jul 20, 2012, 12:44pm »
I read Charm Person "completely under the influence" to mean: 1) completely: _Everything_ the charmer wants is considered perfectly reasonable 2) under the influence: The charmer may provide input including requests and commands that the subject will allow to guide their actions 3) influence != control: The charmer must let the subject know what he wants to have it done. Otherwise the subject is himself and is free to think and chose his own actions. The subject is _not_ a robot that does nothing unless commanded and this spell is _not_ one where the caster controls the subject like a puppet, basically giving the charmed to the player of the charmer as a PC.
I read Hold Person "similar to a Charm Person but which is of both limited duration and greater effect" to mean: 1) similar to Charm Person: see above, all notes 2) greater effect: multiple subjects (HP) is greater than one (CP) 3) greater effect: -2 to save (HP) is greater than normal save (CP) when the second note does not apply
Joined: Nov 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 660 Karma: 19
Re: The Extent of Charm Person: A Few Clues « Reply #4 on Jul 22, 2012, 1:12am »
I generally agree with Alex. Basically, for me, Charm Person = Extreme Loyalty, but not Fanatic Loyalty. It's a way to get a follower without needing to make a reaction roll or offer pay, but it doesn't mean that a charmed person won't make a morale check when ordered to do something suicidal or unthinkable to their world-view, or when mistreated. When morale fails, the charm ends. Prior to that, charmed characters, like other NPCs, will act on the caster's orders to the best of their as they understand the situation.
It doesn't end previous loyalties, although in any loyalty conflict, that lowly orc will probably side with his new spellcaster friend over the tyrannical orc-king. Actually, most evil humanoid societies tend to be portrayed as cultures of cruelty, backstabbing, and extreme interpersonal rivalry, so a charmed orc will probably gladly attack his old comrades. However, a charmed human warrior might be tempted to pretend to kill Snow White rather than actually carry out the order, while still otherwise remaining loyal to the evil queen.
It doesn't extend loyalties to the spellcaster's companions. In fact, a particularly violent, impulsive charmed humanoid may actually attack other PCs who insult the master.
It doesn't grant communication, telepathic or otherwise. Charmed NPCs that speak a different language can be generally directed with hand signs, but you lose a lot of subtlety of detail.
Remember, there's not just morale rolls to take into account, but also command control rolls. When you give an order in the thick of battle, a charmed person must (a) be within the range specified by Charisma, and (b) make a successful roll to hear the order given. Similarly, a charmed berserker might not obey an order to retreat, and a fear spell might cause charmed NPCs to run, even though the charm spell is still in effect.
Joined: Jul 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 477 Karma: 37
Re: The Extent of Charm Person: A Few Clues « Reply #5 on Jul 24, 2012, 11:17am »
Well, based on the way Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax played it, "Charm Person" means "Your New Best Friend," not "Fanatic Minion Who Will Die For You In A Second."
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
Well, based on the way Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax played it, "Charm Person" means "Your New Best Friend," not "Fanatic Minion Who Will Die For You In A Second."
I think I've seen one of them mention that on Dragonsfoot. Which is another reason why I interpret the spell as "automatic very high reaction roll".
Michael Mornard -------------------------- Played in the original Blackmoor, Greyhawk, and EPT Campaigns "Gronan of Simmerya" aka "Old Geezer" aka "LORD Grumpy"
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