Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I take the passage literally. Clerics may use any non-magic weapon they please, but only non-edged magic weapons. Why? Because it's MAGIC! As long as it's consistent, it doesn't have to make sense. Same thing with magic-users, they can use non-magical weapons and armor but the enchanted stuff doesn't work for them. If they try, the enchantments fail and they get no bonuses nor abilities.
Any fool of a DM can kill his players, it's as easy as "Rocks fall, everybody dies". The Art lies in giving them the opportunity to kill themselves, in as entertaining a manner as possible.
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I take the passage literally.
It doesn't matter if you are the minority! It's your game. Play it in whatever way makes it fun for you and your group.
I've had the advantage of being present when the author explained what he meant by that passage. I'm equally certain, however, that Gygax would say to you the same thing I am: make it your own game!
Quote:
As long as it's consistent, it doesn't have to make sense.
I'm confident you won't find anyone here disagreeing with this statement.
Musket balls don't have edges. They do pierce, but they aren't sharp and pointy like arrows. They're just like sling bullets except they travel at a higher velocity. Should clerics be allowed to use guns in settings where firearms exist?
I tend to draw from Hellboy as a source of inspiration whenever I play these clerics. The guy has a belt of holy symbols, he fights demons and undead, he clobbers evil with his huge fist, and he does occasionally use magic. Hellboy is totally a cleric. He uses a gun.
Sam and Dean from Supernatural use guns. Those guys are basically clerics.
Musket balls don't have edges. They do pierce, but they aren't sharp and pointy like arrows. They're just like sling bullets except they travel at a higher velocity. Should clerics be allowed to use guns in settings where firearms exist?
Yeah, I think this comes down to if you want clerics to be using ranged weapons or not. If so, then guns would be okay in my book.
As I mentioned before, in my own campaign, I have interpreted the class weapon restrictions very liberally (as mostly being cultural things). So any class can use any weapon.
Musket balls don't have edges. They do pierce, but they aren't sharp and pointy like arrows. They're just like sling bullets except they travel at a higher velocity. Should clerics be allowed to use guns in settings where firearms exist?
It's a cool idea, for sure.
One possible interpretation is that firearms are wands (e.g., a "wand of punching fire" or similar), and the ball and powder is the "charge". This could work nicely in a setting where science/technology is a form of sorcery/magic. An alchemist may need to be sought for the "magic" black powder, for instance.
Also, there is already a precedent for allowing various wands/staves to clerics, and even allowing a new wand/stave of this sort to all classes could work out very neatly.
It's interesting that one of the primary sources of inspiration for the cleric, the character Abraham Van Helsing, was a medical doctor and one of the foremost scientists of his day.
I like the idea of clerics having a scientific side to them to serve as a counterpoint to their religious side. I am a big fan of A Canticle for Leibowitz after all.
I really wish my buddy Micah would run an AD&D game again. I want to play as a cleric.
The prohibition on clerics using edged weapons seems to stem from this theological principle:
Ecclesia non novit sanguinem. The church does not shed blood.
The idea is that a club (or mace) is compatible with a cleric's duty to refrain from bloodshed, because it primarily crushes an opponent's skull and bones, whereas an edged weapon like a sword (or arrow) pierces an opponent's hide and thus sheds blood.
Many gamers hold antithetical opinions to this idea, nicely expressed here, Busting the myth about clerics and bludgeoning weapons, because in the real world, bludgeoning weapons shed blood, just as much as piercing weapons.
My answer to that is: While real clerics (priests, pastors, cohens and levites) are best advised to refrain from bloodshed and warfare if possible, in a fantasy world it is conceivable that bludgeoning weapons need not draw blood. Perhaps monster hides are so tough that you can kill them by clubbing them without ever shedding a drop of blood. In that case, a DM might want to impose weapon restrictions on clerics. And to reinforce these restrictions, it wouldn't hurt to have some theological basis for the prohibition of piercing weapons in your game. So here are some choice quotes, which if taken literally, prohibit the shedding of blood by clerics.
Now warlike pursuits are altogether incompatible with the duties of a bishop and a cleric, for two reasons. [...] Wherefore it is unbecoming for them to slay or shed blood, and it is more fitting that they should be ready to shed their own blood for Christ, so as to imitate in deed what they portray in their ministry. For this reason it has been decreed that those who shed blood, even without sin, become irregular. Now no man who has a certain duty to perform, can lawfully do that which renders him unfit for that duty. Wherefore it is altogether unlawful for clerics to fight, because war is directed to the shedding of blood.
Digging even deeper into the prohibition on clerics shedding blood led me to the priestly blessing (birkat kohanim or ברכת כהנים), found in Numbers 6:24–26, which is performed daily by Kohanim (Jewish priests) in Israel as well as Catholic priests. It is also used in the Anglican and Lutheran liturgies. Here it is in the Roman Missal. Wikipedia notes:
A Kohen may be disqualified [from blessing the people] by, e.g., having imbibed too much alcohol, having a severe speech impediment, blindness, having taken a human life, having married a disqualifying wife (such as a divorcee), the recent death of a close relation.
When I tracked down halakhic rulings pertaining to the disqualification of priests from saying the priestly blessing, they specifically mention bloodshed:
... any kohen [Priest] with blood on his hands, even if it comes from one of the obligatory wars of self defense, shall not bless the people. --Rav Yisachar Ber Eilenburg: Tzaidah Laderech (p. 69a)
Harav Ben Zion Ouziel: Mishpetei Ouziel, Part 1, Section 10 Rav Joseph B. Soloveitchik: Nefesh Harav, Section 132, Par. 5
A midrash comments that Moses was disqualified from entering Eretz Yisrael (Deuteronomy 3:23-27) on account of shedding an Egyptian's blood (Exodus 2:12). (OTOH, had Moses done nothing to stop the Egyptian taskmaster from killing the Israelite, he also would have been condemned, on the basis of Leviticus 19:16--a Catch-22.) Another midrash comments that King David was disqualified from building the Temple on account of his involvement in obligatory wars (מלחמת מצווה).
Insofar as why priests who come in contact with blood are disqualified from their duties to bless the people, I'd have to guess this comes from the blood taboo (Leviticus 17:11-14), where it says "the soul [transl. life] is in the blood." The soul belongs to God, or rather, it is the very vehicle for Divinity in the world. So God has a strong interest in regulating how blood may be used.
The way I interpret the "do not shed blood" prohibition is: Edged weapons can sever limbs or cause massive, quick blood loss, and piercing weapons can hit vital organs and kill quickly, so clerics are supposed to avoid using or training in those weapons on general principal. The faithful are not *supposed* to shed blood , maim, or kill, but the church recognizes that sometimes it will happen; they just don't approve of preparing to cause maximum damage.
Of course, if you adopt this attitude, then all missile weapons, including firearms, are out. A non-lethal ranged weapon, like a thrown net, would be OK.
Re: valid cleric weapons « Reply #28 on Mar 6, 2013, 5:22pm »
I use the hammer as the symbol of Law, symbolizing justice, building, and forging. Clerics of Law are forbidden from using any weapon other than a hammer. Over the centuries, however, the definition of "hammer" has become looser and looser until it now covers any blunt weapon. I allow slings under this loose definition.
Clerics of Chaos have no restrictions on weapons, since rules are the antithesis of Chaos. However, clerics of Chaos must deal with cruel and capricious gods who usually treat them no better than slaves. The relationship between Elric and Arioch is a good example. Also, most human settlements lean towards Law. Going into a human city and openly showing yourself as a cleric of Chaos is similar to going into a medieval city and declaring yourself a witch or warlock. You'd likely get burned at the stake.
I don't allow neutral clerics. If I decided to allow neutral priest types, I'd use the druid class instead.
Joined: Jun 2012 Gender: Female Posts: 119 Karma: 9
Re: valid cleric weapons « Reply #29 on Mar 6, 2013, 5:59pm »
Maybe one reason clerics would be inclined to wield blunt weapons rather than edged weapons is that they're easier to learn to use. (Is that true, by the way? Not that it really matters.) Viewed in this way, it reflects a cloistered lifestyle focused on scriptural study and the caretaking of one's flock - the cleric is a scholar/administrator, not a warrior, so she chooses a weapon that doesn't require a great deal of training and practice.
Having said that, my policy is to always allow players to do everything, so this issue doesn't often come up.
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