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Post by Mushgnome on Jun 7, 2012 9:40:25 GMT -6
Most players seem to use Sleep as a combat spell, but if you are playing a thief-less 3LBB game, some of the MU spells make a lot of sense for the MU filling the thief role. Put the guards to sleep and tiptoe into the castle...
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Post by talysman on Jun 7, 2012 17:26:42 GMT -6
It's been pointed out a couple times but, judging from many of the posts, seems to keep being missed. There is nothing in the OD&D spell description to suggest the effect of "Sleep" is anything other than normal sleep. So, your party "sleeps" a half dozen orcs. Maybe they could try to sneak past them, or maybe some genius decides to slit a throat. Any noise of significance should immediately awaken the rest of the orcs. They are asleep, not dead. I mostly agree, but balk at " immediately awaken". I'd roll surprise. If the party took some kind of measures to kill silently, I'd roll for a chance to awaken. I'd definitely roll a chance to awaken if the party just tromped through a room full of sleeping orcs, but they'd stand a better chance if they took precautions to minimize noise. Similarly, I'm thinking that in most cases, including Sleep, a saving throw is a privilege, not a right. Orcs start shouting and slapping each other when they spot a muttering magician? Saving throw. Casting sleep in the middle of a loud, drunken party? Saving throw, if not actual negation of the spell. Spell cast quietly from shadows on unaware guards? No save. I can't remember which edition changed the 2d6 affected targets to 2d6 HD, but that seems like a reasonable enough limitation.
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Post by xerxez on Jun 7, 2012 17:59:49 GMT -6
I will admit that this spell has made me as a DM swear under my breath.
Several lovingly designed encounters were rendered cannon fodder by Sleep.
However, low level mages are not especially powerful, and I like them having at least two spells in their arsenal that let them alter the course of the adventure, chiefly Charm Person and Sleep.
Also, it has saved some of my groups from a TPK.
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Post by Zenopus on Jun 7, 2012 20:02:44 GMT -6
Based on the Vol 3 Wandering Monster Tables, a 1st level dungeon should have encounters with Conjurers (Lvl 3 M-U), Theurgists (Lvl 4), Thaumaturguists (Lvl 5), Magicians (Lvl 6) and Enchanters (Lvl 7) at frequencies of 3.2%, 3.2%, 1.6%, 1.6% and 1.6%, respectively. That's more than 11% of wandering monster encounters. Note these are encounters with a group of multiple spell casters. Given the usefulness of Sleep against the other wandering monsters on that level, one would expect at the minimum that at least one M-U per group would have memorized it. Sleep should affect 2-16 1st level characters. All it takes is surprise or an initiative win by the M-Us, plus a good roll on 2d8, to put most or all of a 1st level party to sleep instantly without save. Edit: Revised to include Thaumaturgists. Some comparisons to later versions: In Greyhawk, the chance of encountering wandering MUs on a level 1 dungeon drops slightly from almost 12% to just under 10%. In the Monster & Treasure Assortment, the number drops severely - there's only a 3% chance of encountering a wandering MU on level 1. In the early printings of Holmes, the chance was higher, back up to about 6%. But by the 2nd edition of Holmes, all NPCs were removed from the Wandering Monster tables (presumably because many of the higher level types listed were not described in the rulebook), bringing the chance to 0%. In AD&D, there is a small chance of encountering M-Us (max # is 3) on the 1st level of a dungeon - just over 2% using the Tables in Appendix C. In Moldvay, there's also a 0% chance of wandering MUs on level 1 (pg 53). So there's a clear decrease in the chance of encountering wandering MUs in the dungeon as the rule systems change over time. This makes it much less likely that PCs will get hit by a Sleep spell - I wonder if this was a factor in the change? (I didn't include Elves in the above calculations, who sometimes are accompanied by leaders that can cast Sleep. No Elves in the OD&D or Greyhawk tables) Calculations (if anyone ever wants to check them): OD&D: On a 1st level dungeon, there is an 33.3% chance of a 1st level monster, a 33.3% chance of a 2nd level monster, a 16.7% chance of a 3rd level monster and a 16.7% chance of a 4th level monster. MUs are present twice on each of the 2nd level and 3rd level tables (20%), and once on the fourth level tables (10%). (.333 x .2) + (.167 x .2) x (.167 x .1) = .067 + .033 + .017 = .117, or 11.7% (over 1 in 10). GreyhawkThe only change is that there are 12 entries on each table instead of 10. (.333 x .167) + (.167 x .167) + (.167 x .083) = .056 + .028 + .014 = .098 (just under 1 in 10). M&TAIn the M&TA, MUs are present on 3 lines out of 100 for each of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd monster levels (none for the fourth level). I think the assumption for M&TA is that you just use the level 1 monster list on level 1, the level 2 list on level 2, rather than rolling for level to use as in Vol 3 or Greyhawk. So, a 3% chance of a wandering MU on level 1. If you do roll for the table to use per Vol 3, the chance is even lower: (.333 x .03) + (.333 x .03) + (.167 x .03) = .01 + .01 + .005 = .025, or 2.5% HolmesIn the 1st print, on a 1st level dungeon there is a 66.7% chance of a 1st level monster, 25% chance of a 2nd level monster and a 8.3% chance of a 3rd level monster. MUs are present once each on the 1st (1-2 Seers), 2nd (1-4 Conjurers) and 3rd (1-3 Theurgists) level monster tables (8.3%), though the Seers share a line with another entry, reducing the chance by a further half. (.667 x .083 x .5) + (.25 x .083) + (.083 x .083) = .028 + .021 + .007 = .056 = 5.6% (about 1 in 18) AD&D: On a 1st level dungeon, there is an 80% chance of 1st level monster, a 15% chance of a 2nd level monster, and a 5% chance of a 3rd level monster. 1st level monsters: 15% are human, of which 65% are "Characters", of which 21% are MUs; .8 x .15 x .65 x .21 = .016 = 1.6% 2nd level monster: 11% are Characters, of which 21% are MUs.; .15 x .11 x .21 = .0035 = .35% 3rd level monsters: 10% are Characters, of which 21% are MUs; .10 x .21 = .0011 = .11% Total chance of MU on 1st level dungeon = 1.6% + .35% + .11% = 2.06% (about 1 in 50).
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Post by aldarron on Jun 7, 2012 20:08:14 GMT -6
It's been pointed out a couple times but, judging from many of the posts, seems to keep being missed. There is nothing in the OD&D spell description to suggest the effect of "Sleep" is anything other than normal sleep. So, your party "sleeps" a half dozen orcs. Maybe they could try to sneak past them, or maybe some genius decides to slit a throat. Any noise of significance should immediately awaken the rest of the orcs. They are asleep, not dead. I mostly agree, but balk at " immediately awaken". I'd roll surprise. If the party took some kind of measures to kill silently, I'd roll for a chance to awaken. I'd definitely roll a chance to awaken if the party just tromped through a room full of sleeping orcs, but they'd stand a better chance if they took precautions to minimize noise. Similarly, I'm thinking that in most cases, including Sleep, a saving throw is a privilege, not a right. Orcs start shouting and slapping each other when they spot a muttering magician? Saving throw. Casting sleep in the middle of a loud, drunken party? Saving throw, if not actual negation of the spell. Spell cast quietly from shadows on unaware guards? No save. I can't remember which edition changed the 2d6 affected targets to 2d6 HD, but that seems like a reasonable enough limitation. Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me John.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 16:45:44 GMT -6
I like sleep just like it is and have never considered it to be overpowered. As a ref I have not found it to be a problem. A point to consider: not all orcs are first level.
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Arminath
Level 4 Theurgist
WoO:CR
Posts: 150
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Post by Arminath on Jun 18, 2012 0:32:29 GMT -6
This is what I did to it just to make it simple to use: Sleep Spell Level: Magic-user, 1st Level Range: 240 ft Duration: 6 turns This spell puts 4d4 hit dice worth of creatures of 4 Hit Dice or less in a 20 ft cube into an enchanted slumber, beginning with the weakest creatures first. Now all the suggestions about adding extra rules to the spell, how to figure out when/if something can be awakened, how long it takes to fall asleep/become awake...those are neat things any Referee should be able to decide on the fly. Play it like it's 1974, not 2012.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 18, 2012 21:14:00 GMT -6
I like sleep just like it is and have never considered it to be overpowered. As a ref I have not found it to be a problem. A point to consider: not all orcs are first level. One potential "issue" with the description of sleep as it appears in M&M (going from memory here) is that it doesn't work out neatly versus groups of monsters with mixed HD. My solution to this is very similar to Arminath's (above). I have it affecting 3d6 HD worth of monsters, with 1+x HD creatures being worth 2 HD each, 2+x HD creatures being worth 3 HD each, and 3+x HD creatures being worth 4 HD each. At most one 4 HD creature can be affected. The result is that sleep can be seamlessly applied to mixed HD groups of monsters, and will affect the following numbers of monsters (or any mixed combination of these): Up to 1 HD: 3-18 creatures (average 10) Up to 2 HD: 1-9 creatures (average 5) Up to 3 HD: 1-6 creatures (average 3) Up to 4 HD: exactly 1 creature. Which (again, going from memory) are "pretty close" to the numbers given in M&M.
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 5, 2012 11:02:01 GMT -6
It's been pointed out a couple times but, judging from many of the posts, seems to keep being missed. There is nothing in the OD&D spell description to suggest the effect of "Sleep" is anything other than normal sleep. So, your party "sleeps" a half dozen orcs. Maybe they could try to sneak past them, or maybe some genius decides to slit a throat. Any noise of significance should immediately awaken the rest of the orcs. They are asleep, not dead. I meant to follow up on this earlier. Dan, this is an excellent point. AD&D specifies that movement (shaking, etc) but not noise will awaken a magically sleeping creature, but this is a later addition (Moldvay implies the same). I think many bring this later rule back to the older editions. As you point out, nothing in the description of Sleep in Men & Magic, Greyhawk, or Holmes suggests that the sleep induced by a Sleep spell is anything other than ordinary sleep, so it's a reasonable interpretation that any continuing combat noise will awaken all affected creatures (after 1 round, say). In this interpretation, unless the spell manages to put all opposing creatures asleep, the others will begin to awaken if combat continues with the unaffected creatures. This would make the spell less of an "instant win" for the PCs, but also less of a "instant TPK" for an NPC magic-user attacking a 1st level party. Which makes the high frequency of magic-users in the original D&D wandering monster tables slightly less likely to result in TPKs. Groups of M-Us are still deadly dangerous if carrying multiple Sleep spells, the combination of which is likely to put the entire party to Sleep.
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Post by kenmeister on Aug 9, 2012 10:13:36 GMT -6
I'm very, very nervous about changing the Sleep spell. Without it, a dozen orcs have a strong chance of a TPK against your typical first level adventuring party. Also, whaddaya mean referees don't use it against players? Like fun! There's a reason that "Men" are the most dreaded monster encounter there is. Every time I've tinkered with sleep, I've reversed it for the reasons stated above. Yeah, playing through something like Keep on the Borderlands with a toned down sleep makes the adventure a slog, and more deadly. It is SO much easier to just knock all the minis over, or circle them on the whiteboard, however you keep track, than to tediously roll saves for each goblin, orc, etc. Ultimately, it is the tool to get low level parties to 2nd level.
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Post by philotomy on Aug 13, 2012 19:48:40 GMT -6
I don't think sleep is overpowered. I'd leave it alone.
I consider sleep to be a potent combat spell. It's the low-level party's tactical nuke. (I think charm person is a potent combat spell, too.)
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Post by calithena on Aug 29, 2012 20:45:41 GMT -6
This was invariably the no-brainer first spell for nearly every MU 1 in the games I played in, without a mission reason to take a different one. Charm Person was the 'thinking man's' alternative since you could get a free slave if you played it right. But sleep was a free won fight.
With standard first level foes, this spell is better than fireball against standard 5th level foes.
Is that a problem? I don't think so. Your MU is mostly worthless at first level - a 'smart bomb' a la Missile Command at least gives him one moment to shine.
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Post by calithena on Aug 29, 2012 20:47:15 GMT -6
I swear I didn't read Philotomy's post before I typed that. Just read his stuff, he knows where it's at.
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 29, 2012 20:56:15 GMT -6
I agree it's a great spell for 1st level M-Us. My argument for it being "overpowered" is that it seems that DMs rarely use it against 1st level parties even though in OD&D 1 in 10 wandering monster encounters should be with M-Us that can cast Sleep.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 29, 2012 21:26:05 GMT -6
Most refs like to construct their own dungeon-specific monster tables, so the "default" ones given in the 3LBBs may not be used in every situation.
For me, I use those tables only as a guide to inform the construction of my own tables, but I rarely (if ever) use magic-users as random dungeon encounters. If/when they do show up, I have a need to ascribe a purpose to them, and a reason from them being there. Maybe that's why I don't get to throw sleep spells at my players often enough ;D
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